[MashinBenzin]

Also some good pics in this week's Autocar, but not yet on their site.

I like it much more than I expected to - Defender with a heavy hint of G-Wagon.

Will have the grumbling PHers satisfied surely, they can all place their orders now

[TodmordenLad]

Ready for farm duty, that one. Proper off-roader.

[JustChris]

Dear lord how is it possible to photocopy that much of a cars design and not breach something.

Ladder chassis and all, has a chance of being a mini cult car perhaps.

[speedski]

Well the outside is done, I don't get why you would CGI the end of that video to pretend it drives. I like it, although those grille lights don't really look right. Modders field day though!

[TodmordenLad]

Hadn't appreciated that the Grenadier will use BMW straight six petrol and diesel engines - so they've certainly got the motor sorted.

EDIT: and the engineering has been outsourced to the German company, MBtech, so this thing might actually spend most of its time on the road - as opposed to the back of a recovery truck

[Tengocity]

Really interesting approach. I don't think they're wrong in thinking there's room in the market for it.

My problem is that I wish I had the lifestyle to need something like this, or a new defender, but I just don't.

I love that they've gone for the BMW 6 pot engines though, and they seem keen to have all design work as open source to encourage the aftermarket.

Can you imagine one of these with the B58 engine, and a fruity exhaust!

It wouldn't be fast, but it would sound great and hopefully be fun to drive even at low speed.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Really interesting approach. I don't think they're wrong in thinking there's room in the market for it.

My problem is that I wish I had the lifestyle to need something like this, or a new defender, but I just don't.

I love that they've gone for the BMW 6 pot engines though, and they seem keen to have all design work as open source to encourage the aftermarket.

Can you imagine one of these with the B58 engine, and a fruity exhaust!

It wouldn't be fast, but it would sound great and hopefully be fun to drive even at low speed.

I know what you mean. I will also never have the lifestyle to justify such a car - and the last time I did was forty years ago when I lived on the edge of Dartmoor in a cottage on a farm at the end of a long unmade road.
I suspect that the majority of buyers will be hardcore off-road enthusiasts and proper rural country types. That said, I wouldn't be surprised to see a few ploughing up and down the A roads and motorways of the SE and the home counties, regrettably.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Tengocity

Really interesting approach. I don't think they're wrong in thinking there's room in the market for it.

My problem is that I wish I had the lifestyle to need something like this, or a new defender, but I just don't.

I love that they've gone for the BMW 6 pot engines though, and they seem keen to have all design work as open source to encourage the aftermarket.

Can you imagine one of these with the B58 engine, and a fruity exhaust!

It wouldn't be fast, but it would sound great and hopefully be fun to drive even at low speed.

Which does explain why LR moved their new Defender so far away from this proposition - to fit into a wider range of lifestyles. The new Defender, depending on your particular range of compromises, is a close fit with the Discovery/RRS/FFRR markets - without being 'the same thing'.

Suspect the Ineos would be far less a simple fit with the same buyers, but hopefully has its own niche. I like it, but couldn't see it on my drive, but could see a Defender there.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Which does explain why LR moved their new Defender so far away from this proposition - to fit into a wider range of lifestyles. The new Defender, depending on your particular range of compromises, is a close fit with the Discovery/RRS/FFRR markets - without being 'the same thing'.

Suspect the Ineos would be far less a simple fit with the same buyers, but hopefully has its own niche. I like it, but couldn't see it on my drive, but could see a Defender there.

The old Defender sold well enough. Targeting every model at a narrow band seems more risky.

I think the Defender will steal Disco sales.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

The old Defender sold well enough. Targeting every model at a narrow band seems more risky.

I think the Defender will steal Disco sales.

A friend of mine who drives an Evoque has a Defender 90 on order... but has just said she liked the Ineos.

She has no need for either a Defender or an Ineos - but long time customer, RRS, D3 etc.... Apart from living in leafy Cheshire and having land with stables that people keep their horses in, she has no need for any off roader... so marketing may win out over need.....

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Which does explain why LR moved their new Defender so far away from this proposition - to fit into a wider range of lifestyles. The new Defender, depending on your particular range of compromises, is a close fit with the Discovery/RRS/FFRR markets - without being 'the same thing'.

Suspect the Ineos would be far less a simple fit with the same buyers, but hopefully has its own niche. I like it, but couldn't see it on my drive, but could see a Defender there.

Will be interesting to see how the Ineos Grenadier, (even the Defender) fits in with the guys up here. Shepherds and Crofters typically are into the Japanese AWD gear, as it is virtually indestructible.

The original Defender wasn't always up to the job. Cost and reliability are the measures the guys using these models as 'work horses', will be looking at.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

The old Defender sold well enough. Targeting every model at a narrow band seems more risky.

I think the Defender will steal Disco sales.

The old Defender definitely did not sell well enough. LR had no option but to.move it to a different market, I.e. widen the appeal.

Agree, there is a real chance that it will steal Disco sales and might even kill it off. The Defender is far more a successor to the Discovery 3/4 than it is to the old Defender.

Each model does have a niche as well as the crossover with other models. Need full adult sized seven seats, it's only the Discovery that does that. Want the full practicality with luxury, only Disco. Want the full set of off road ability - only Disco or Defender. Want the V8s? You'll need a Range Rover. Blah blah.

If most people are buying Discoveries for off-road ability and only 80% of its practicality, then I think the Defender will kill it as well as bringing in the image-conscious buyers that it also targets.

The biggest question mark in the range for me is the Velar - it's possibly a looks-driven purchase, why choose a Velar when you can have the same 4-cylinder engines in the Defender and the sixes in the RRS. But that's seeing it through my lens.

[Goneinsixtyseconds]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

The old Defender definitely did not sell well enough. LR had no option but to.move it to a different market, I.e. widen the appeal.

Agree, there is a real chance that it will steal Disco sales and might even kill it off. The Defender is far more a successor to the Discovery 3/4 than it is to the old Defender.

Each model does have a niche as well as the crossover with other models. Need full adult sized seven seats, it's only the Discovery that does that. Want the full practicality with luxury, only Disco. Want the full set of off road ability - only Disco or Defender. Want the V8s? You'll need a Range Rover. Blah blah.

If most people are buying Discoveries for off-road ability and only 80% of its practicality, then I think the Defender will kill it as well as bringing in the image-conscious buyers that it also targets.

The biggest question mark in the range for me is the Velar - it's possibly a looks-driven purchase, why choose a Velar when you can have the same 4-cylinder engines in the Defender and the sixes in the RRS. But that's seeing it through my lens.

The Defender did sell in high enough numbers in its hey day, which was a pretty long one.

At the end of its life it was tired and there were plenty of other, mainly Japanese, workhorse offerings to choose from. It doesn’t mean the customers disappeared, they just went somewhere else. They still exist for the right car.

I appreciate they all have niches, but that’s what they are, niches within the same target market. I thought the Velar was a model too far, now I think the Defender is another that will sell well, but at the same time impact the sale of other models from Land Rover.

I don’t dislike the car, I just don’t think it opens up access to new\lost customers.

Land Rover at Heywood told us that the Velar impacted sales of the Evoque when it came out. Those looking for a fashionable SUV went for it, and if the price hadn’t been such a gap, it would have hurt it even more.

Evoque sales went up after the facelift, where it looks like a mini Velar, but the Velar went down again.

There is a finite market for £50k plus SUV’s (which most LR models are at a decent spec) and putting more models into that customer bracket doesn’t necessarily translate to a proportionate increase in sales.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by Goneinsixtyseconds

The Defender did sell in high enough numbers in its hey day, which was a pretty long one.

At the end of its life it was tired and there were plenty of other, mainly Japanese, workhorse offerings to choose from. It doesn't mean the customers disappeared, they just went somewhere else. They still exist for the right car.

I appreciate they all have niches, but that's what they are, niches within the same target market. I thought the Velar was a model too far, now I think the Defender is another that will sell well, but at the same time impact the sale of other models from Land Rover.

I don't dislike the car, I just don't think it opens up access to new\lost customers.

Land Rover at Heywood told us that the Velar impacted sales of the Evoque when it came out. Those looking for a fashionable SUV went for it, and if the price hadn't been such a gap, it would have hurt it even more.

Evoque sales went up after the facelift, where it looks like a mini Velar, but the Velar went down again.

There is a finite market for £50k plus SUV's (which most LR models are at a decent spec) and putting more models into that customer bracket doesn't necessarily translate to a proportionate increase in sales.

I think we largely agree, other than on Defender sales. They haven't been strong enough for a couple of decades, except that the fact that no real development happened on a platform that was already paid off - so still profitable. Between 2000 and 2016 there was not a single year with production above 25k.

The old market is all in Hiluxes and the like. The new Defender surely has to sell multiple times what the old one achieved to have any chance of being a commercial success. Probably 50-60k a year minimum. Which is more than the Discovery which is limping along around the 40k mark.

The Grenadier must have a chance of snapping up the leisure off-road buyers, but can't see it making much of a dent in the commercial and farming market either.

[TouringPleb]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

Will be interesting to see how the Ineos Grenadier, (even the Defender) fits in with the guys up here. Shepherds and Crofters typically are into the Japanese AWD gear, as it is virtually indestructible.

The original Defender wasn't always up to the job. Cost and reliability are the measures the guys using these models as 'work horses', will be looking at.

In rural Cambridgeshire it's Japanese for working vehicles as well with some VW Amaroks.

Then there's one particular community that like pimped up Rangers.

And the horsey types love their Disco 4s and don't seem to be buying the new Disco.

Will be interesting over the next few years where the Grenadier fits into the mix.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

The old market is all in Hiluxes and the like. The new Defender surely has to sell multiple times what the old one achieved to have any chance of being a commercial success. Probably 50-60k a year minimum. Which is more than the Discovery which is limping along around the 40k mark.

The Grenadier must have a chance of snapping up the leisure off-road buyers, but can't see it making much of a dent in the commercial and farming market either.

I do wonder if the market is even remotely the same these days, as it was say 20 - 25 years ago when the Defender still had a decent share, commercially and in the farming sector.

What I see, is the more versatile double cab pickup as the vehicle that dominates up here. It's a "does everything" vehicle, including long distance family transport.

The Disco is more a play thing, side-lined by many a serious 'high demand' user.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by TouringPleb

In rural Cambridgeshire it's Japanese for working vehicles as well with some VW Amaroks.

Then there's one particular community that like pimped up Rangers.

And the horsey types love their Disco 4s and don't seem to be buying the new Disco.

Will be interesting over the next few years where the Grenadier fits into the mix.

The Japanese kit leads up here, VW and Ford now getting a look in. The option of pickup variants, fits so many commercial sectors. See them from fish farms to Scottish Hydro maintenance, crofters to builders.

I know guys who have sold out from all other motor sectors and simply run something like a Nissan Navara, optioned to suit their needs. Does everything.

Not sure the Grenadier will appeal to a wide market, after the proven versatility of the current crop of vehicles.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I do wonder if the market is even remotely the same these days, as it was say 20 - 25 years ago when the Defender still had a decent share, commercially and in the farming sector.

What I see, is the more versatile double cab pickup as the vehicle that dominates up here. It's a "does everything" vehicle, including long distance family transport.

The Disco is more a play thing, side-lined by many a serious 'high demand' user.

I wasn't very clear in that post, but I'm not suggesting at all that the Defender will recover much, if any, of its old commercial/workhorse market. It's very much a 'normal' market vehicle, albeit for the owner that wants some of that utilitarian vibe.

It has to pick up sales from people who like the image etc. I've no doubt it would have done well pre-covid.

See lots of Discos around here in modest workhorse roles, horse boxes and the like. Defender will suit that even better from an image perspective.

But it's the urban market that it needs to nail to make the money. Same as all the pricey SUVs.

[HighlandPete]

I'm aware of potential users who have eagerly anticipated a "replacement" Defender, who just see it as an overpriced 'urban' alternative.

Overpriced and has to prove itself as a durable and reliable vehicle. As I've heard stated... "Not at that price".

Will be interesting to see if companies like Scottish Hydro start using the Defender for off road work, like power line/grid maintenance. I've a feeling Land Rover may have a task on their hands, to get back their market share in companies like that.

[MashinBenzin]

Originally Posted by HighlandPete

I'm aware of potential users who have eagerly anticipated a "replacement" Defender, who just see it as an overpriced 'urban' alternative.

Overpriced and has to prove itself as a durable and reliable vehicle. As I've heard stated... "Not at that price".

Will be interesting to see if companies like Scottish Hydro start using the Defender for off road work, like power line/grid maintenance. I've a feeling Land Rover may have a task on their hands, to get back their market share in companies like that.

Yep, I don't see why any commercial company wanting reliability would pick any LR, or indeed almost anything else, over a Toyota. Even at price parity, never mind a premium.

[TodmordenLad]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Yep, I don't see why any commercial company wanting reliability would pick any LR, or indeed almost anything else, over a Toyota. Even at price parity, never mind a premium.

Exactly. The Japanese pickup truck manufacturers have got the utility vehicle market sown up from what I can see. Can't see JLR or Ineos getting a look in. If you're running a business and looking for utility vehicles, price, reliability and functionality are what matters - and heritage doesn't come into it.

[pmgreenwood]

Originally Posted by MashinBenzin

Which does explain why LR moved their new Defender so far away from this proposition - to fit into a wider range of lifestyles. The new Defender, depending on your particular range of compromises, is a close fit with the Discovery/RRS/FFRR markets - without being 'the same thing'.

Suspect the Ineos would be far less a simple fit with the same buyers, but hopefully has its own niche. I like it, but couldn't see it on my drive, but could see a Defender there.

LR launched a commercial van version of new defender one day before Ineos launch and undercut it on price just.