[rokut]

Hey guys,

Me again. Changing it up this time with a throwback to 2005 and me thinking that a 16 year old car is a good idea...

I was harbouring interest in punting plenty of monthly cash into some kind of last-throw-of-the-dice V8 (C63/ Mustang, that sorta thang) after my A35 goes back in a month's time, but honestly the money to lease such a thing is scary these days. At least £750 a month for a basic Mustang, and more like £1k+ for the C63. Gulp! My S4 was £399, and the A35 £470 (inc service pack) - so honestly I can't knowingly sink so much cash into running a V8 for a few years.

I helped the wife (yep, we're still together!) into a 235i GC for ~£400 a month inc sunroof, leather & service & maintenance which will be delivered towards end of Sept. We have a Kia X-Ceed (£220 a month inc. servicing) until April next year, so will have cover through A35 going back and 235i turning up. SO I got thinking... something reasonably practical so I can shove the kids in the back as needed but a bit of fun, and mainly CHEAP(ish).

I had a 182 Cup back in the day (2005) for a few years and loved it. Decent 182s seem thin on the ground these days, and would think about a 197/200, or even Megane 220/225 etc. However, I've done the French hot hatch thing and always had a bit of an itch for a CTR. Not a fan of the FN2 style, and the EP3 are more interesting to me (as they were the arch nemesis of the 182s at the time!).
Does anyone have any background on them?
I've done masses of YT watching, forum reading, classified searching and come up with a 2005, '55', Cosmic Grey Premier Edition with one catch... it has massive miles! 210k to be exact! But 3 owners, the last one of which has done 14 years with it and has accumulated huge miles due to commute up and down the M3. MOT checks out, guy seems legit, new clutch in the past three years, discs & pads newish, tyres good, looks nice, chain tensioners looked after, good oil used etc, continued to be serviced at Honda. BUT 210k miles.

Kind of sold on it, would like to go for it but wondered if anyone has any thoughts? Or indeed has any other bright ideas to spend £3.5-£5k on??

If I got the CTR at ~£4k and it fell apart (unlikely, but worst case scenario) it wouldn't be the end of the world. In essence it would be around 8 months of A35 payments, or around 3.5 months of C63 ownership. Plus we have the X-Ceed if it all goes to sh!t.

Anyway... anyone?

Thanks for the thought!

[rossm]

Owned a facelift one of these from new in 2004 to 2018. Great cars if looked after well, consume a lot of oil

The engines are fairly bulletproof and mine was on 150k when I let it go, as long as it's been serviced regularly (timing chain MUST be done on schedule, and valve clearances checked every 25k) then I don't see why not

If you do buy it I have an unmarked set of anthracite powder coated OEM wheels and a GruppeM ram air induction kit (best induction noise ever) in the garage

Miss mine a lot!

[isleaiw1]

Focus ST with the 5 pot engine
BMW 130i with the 6 pot
Mini Cooper S - maybe this one?

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...ke=MINI&page=4

[rokut]

rossm - yeah, ready to be topping up oil every week or two as needed. Hopefully it doesn't drink too much, but I'm prepared!
From what I know the timing chain has all been done on schedule, as well as the valves but I will check this and look out for signs of issues on the test drive. If I get it then I'll definitely be in touch about the wheels/ induction kit. How's the GruppeM rated vs. Tegiwa that I see everyone going on about? Thank you!

Ian - you know how to stir it up! Focus ST, probably more aesthetics and the rude boi image (more so than a CTR?! I hear you say! ) that I have trouble with. BMW 130i is a nice shout, might take a look. Mini's - always admired them, but never had much of a hankering to own one. So absolutely that is a hell of a lot of car for the money, but don't yearn for it. Just a personal thing for sure. I mean I was running about in a Racing Blue 182 with Gordini stripes... so how's that for blowing my past statements out of the water?? haha

What about some of these off-the-wall options? Money-pits??
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

[Wolverine]

I think the EP3 seems a top idea to spend that sort of money. I'd be wary of the miles too but as long as the maintenance is done to schedule, I don't think Honda have had a mechanical catastrophe in the VTEC engines.

I used to have the FN2 championship white limited edition. Number 150/600 I believe. It was a great car and is the only car I have ever regretted getting rid of. Sure it was bigger than the EP3. Sure it lost the independent rear suspension to a torsion beam set up. Sure it was heavier than the EP3. But it had a limited slip diff, I put it on Eibach pro springs and I drove it hard for 112 miles a day for about 40k miles and it was spot on for every mile of that.

It only ever developed a minor oil leak from the crank case seal and I was advised to do the clutch replacement at the same time as the fixed price clutch replacement was cheaper than the labour cost of changing the seal on its own.

The dealership experience I had with Honda was nothing but positive too.

I'd have another, if one were available. But currently I can only find 4 white FN2 models and they're all Mugen 200 editions commanding anything from £10-19k.

Do the Type R. You'll have a riot

Mine;

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by rokut

rossm - yeah, ready to be topping up oil every week or two as needed. Hopefully it doesn't drink too much, but I'm prepared!
From what I know the timing chain has all been done on schedule, as well as the valves but I will check this and look out for signs of issues on the test drive. If I get it then I'll definitely be in touch about the wheels/ induction kit. How's the GruppeM rated vs. Tegiwa that I see everyone going on about? Thank you!

Ian - you know how to stir it up! Focus ST, probably more aesthetics and the rude boi image (more so than a CTR?! I hear you say! ) that I have trouble with. BMW 130i is a nice shout, might take a look. Mini's - always admired them, but never had much of a hankering to own one. So absolutely that is a hell of a lot of car for the money, but don't yearn for it. Just a personal thing for sure. I mean I was running about in a Racing Blue 182 with Gordini stripes... so how's that for blowing my past statements out of the water?? haha

What about some of these off-the-wall options? Money-pits??
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...cation=at_cars

Whereas I see the engineering quality of the Honda and the bread van looks, and having to row it along to keep in the revs would be a ball ache in real life to a man as lazy as me, so the ford has muscle and a great noise (and its a Volvo underneath and I used to love a fast Volvo!). And I have a Mini, which replaced another Mini - they just drive brilliantly and make you smile...

If you are widening beyond a hot hatch then that CLK looks good -might even go up in value as they are reaching collectible age.....

As for the Golf, you can never go wrong with a Golf. Had a Mk 7 GTi PP and it was probably the best daily driver I have owned for being able to do fun and docile, handling well but being comfy....

I guess it all comes down to how you are going to use it.....and obviously you are a lot younger than me and not so far into the wanting it to just go fast without too much effort (or skill in my case!)

[G50]

I currently have a heavily (track)modified EP3. I bought it with 90% of the mods done so haven't driven a standard one, however having been in one as a passenger, and owned a standard S2000 I have a good idea of what the standard car would be like.

To consider one you need to:
A) be happy to overlook the low rent interior and poor/lack of infotainment if using as a daily. The interior quality went down hill for the Ep3 compared to previous generation civics, FN2 is also much better.

b) either be prepared to modify it or be happy with what will feel like a slow car these days. The K20 is a fantastic engine, unrivalled engineering for a mass produced small cheap hatchback; there is a reason why so many cars are being "k swapped", including lots of 182's! But it really does need breathing mods and a map to be at it's best, otherwise you will either find yourself hitting the limiter or being out of the powerband. Mine is 240bhp, has vtec crossover at 4800rpm, rev limit at 8750rpm so roughly 4000rpm of powerband and feels relatively quick. Standard crossover is ~6000rpm and rev limit at 8000rpm so 2000rpm of powerband. You need to redline it in every gear to not drop below 6k for the next gear. It also needs a diff to be properly enjoyed, especially if you map it.

c) these are still in the "chav" phase on the curve of future classic car status

If it's been maintained right, the miles won't be an issue for the engine, and I'd want to be refreshing the suspension of a car this old regardless of the miles. As above, evidence of timing chain being done at correct intervals, same for oil changes. The biggest thing you need to look out for is rust, especially in the rear arches and sills. The facelift cars gained carpet in the rear arches, which makes the arches rot faster than the older pre facelift cars. You need to look at this area very carefully, as well as under the boot liner and around the top of the hatch/roof area. Ideally you need to look under the whole car for rust. The rust issue is what is starting to drive up the values of these cars, they have historically been low due to the sheer volume sold, however they are being scrapped due to rust at an increasing rate. The car you are looking at would have been £2500 for that miles a couple of years ago, if that. Most other issues will be relatively cheap fixes for a good Indy, as there is still an abundance of parts and the aftermarket is still very good for these cars, although past its peak as the numbers still on the road starts to decrease.

The values are only going up from here, so if you keep rust at bay and maintain it well, you won't suffer any depreciation. The demand for the K20 will continue to increase relative to the supply of good K20's, and that alone will push up the value of the EP3(especially as the EP3 is cable throttle, unlike the FN2 which is drive by wire) as nobody makes a small NA screamer of an engine like the K20 anymore, and more and more are starting to appreciate the appeal.

[G50]

Originally Posted by isleaiw1

Whereas I see the engineering quality of the Honda and the bread van looks

The EP3 was certainly built to a price, they were £15k when they came out! This certainly affected the look and feel of the interior, quality of plastics, lack of sufficient rust treatment, and the paint is very poor compared to a German car.

But don't mistake any of the above for poor engineering quality, while the EP3 is far from Honda's best, the engineering is still very high for a mass produced car, especially the engine and gearbox, which are in a different league to any other hot hatch of the era in terms of technology and engineering. Granted not everybody will get on with the power delivery, especially as standard where the engine is strangled, yet still produces 200hp NA from 2 litres.
People have done 300,000+ miles on K20's that get driven hard daily. Mine has done 120,000 miles and is stronger than the day it left the factory 17years ago, gets revved way above the original redline every time it gets used, for prolonged track sessions, then gets driven home.

[isleaiw1]

Originally Posted by G50

The EP3 was certainly built to a price, they were £15k when they came out! This certainly affected the look and feel of the interior, quality of plastics, lack of sufficient rust treatment, and the paint is very poor compared to a German car.

But don't mistake any of the above for poor engineering quality, while the EP3 is far from Honda's best, the engineering is still very high for a mass produced car, especially the engine and gearbox, which are in a different league to any other hot hatch of the era in terms of technology and engineering. Granted not everybody will get on with the power delivery, especially as standard where the engine is strangled, yet still produces 200hp NA from 2 litres.
People have done 300,000+ miles on K20's that get driven hard daily. Mine has done 120,000 miles and is stronger than the day it left the factory 17years ago, gets revved way above the original redline every time it gets used, for prolonged track sessions, then gets driven home.

The engineering quality was a positive in that sentence, sorry I didnt make it clear. Much better than most other cars of that price at the time. And probably a better place to spend it than pretty plastics..... but couldnt they have made it look nicer!

[rossm]

Originally Posted by rokut

How's the GruppeM rated vs. Tegiwa that I see everyone going on about? Thank you!

The Tegiwa is a copy. I guess its a bit like fake Rolex in that it will tell the time and look similar but you know it's not the genuine article


https://www.gruppemdirect.com/collec...pe-r-2-0l-k20a

Not my video but the sound is epic when it comes on cam and vtec kicks in y0!

Type R goes braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap

[G50]

Originally Posted by rossm

The Tegiwa is a copy. I guess its a bit like fake Rolex in that it will tell the time and look similar but you know it's not the genuine article


https://www.gruppemdirect.com/collec...pe-r-2-0l-k20a

Not my video but the sound is epic when it comes on cam and vtec kicks in y0!

Type R goes braaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap

Intake alone sounds nice, but mapped with bolt-ons they are a different animal. That first video to me sounds really flat now, and kissing the limiter when changing gear to be just about in Vtec in the following gear can be tiresome.

When mapped(with bolt-ons) you have more options when driving it quickly, you can "short shift" at 7500rpm and still be in the power in the next gear, or rev it out to 8700rpm, rather than constantly trying to rev it right to the limiter at 8k just to keep it on the boil and not drop out of vtec.

[Scoobyd]

Enjoying this thread.

Back in the day I had a 1991 CRX VTEC. What a gearchange, what an engine, what a fun, chuckable car. I absolutely loved it. The noise every time you hit that VTEC range, helped by a K&N cone air filter! I only sold it to scratch my classic Impreza Turbo itch at the time. Hence the username!

But if there's a car I've owned that I could get back to drive again it would be the CRX without any hesitation.

[G50]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

Enjoying this thread.

Back in the day I had a 1991 CRX VTEC. What a gearchange, what an engine, what a fun, chuckable car. I absolutely loved it. The noise every time you hit that VTEC range, helped by a K&N cone air filter! I only sold it to scratch my classic Impreza Turbo itch at the time. Hence the username!

But if there's a car I've owned that I could get back to drive again it would be the CRX without any hesitation.

I like that! They were great cars, under appreciated for a while, until pooff, rust kills 99% of them off and lots of people start to wish they had squirrelled one away in a garage somewhere.

Quite a lot of Honda's like that.

[rokut]

Wolverine - you got it! I think it's quite a lot of car for the money, and certainly an icon. Having never experienced VTEC I'm excited to own one too. Your FN2 looks marvellous! And really glad to hear you had so much fun in it and the owner experience was such a positive one. I can only hope to get close to that!

G50 - thank you so much for such a detailed reply. Of course, this is signing up for a 16 year old car, one that was pretty 'basic' inside even back then, so for sure I need to be aware of that and if the test drive 'shocks' me then of course I can halt there. The reality is; after a new 330d, 335d GT, S4 and A35 I'm a bit tired of the shifting out big money for cars that I've become quite accustomed to. The A35 has been fun, and yes full of tech, but £470 a month for a relatively 'tinny' car with a relatively coarse drivetrain has worn thin. So the ~£4k to actually OWN a car again, and one that I know is old and no doubt going to feel raw is certainly a better proposition. Plus my wife having a plush new car for the family gives me the ease of getting something that doesn't need to be relied on for long distance covering or keeping the family happy at all times.
Really good tips on the mods and tweaks. With such a cheap starting point then a bit of cash into the car on a regular basis is all good with me. The saving of monthlies should make it really quite manageable. The main thing is to get a good starting point, of which I hope the Premier Edition gives, and go from there. Fingers crossed the test drive doesn't bring anything alarming up.

Ian - all good points. I understand your thinking entirely and there is certainly part of me that thinks a drop-top would be nice, plush leather etc, but it just doesn't excite me like the EP3 does. Plus if I really don't get on with it then I'll sell and move onto another £4k special! haha

rossm - awesome! Love it. I also love how much noise it makes while not actually going anywhere too quickly in absolute terms! At least you can spend a fair chunk of time on full acceleration without getting into silly speeds. If you don't mind dropping me a PM with thoughts on what you'd want for the Gruppe M then if all goes well I'd be interested in it...

[Scoobyd]

Originally Posted by G50

I like that! They were great cars, under appreciated for a while, until pooff, rust kills 99% of them off and lots of people start to wish they had squirrelled one away in a garage somewhere.

Quite a lot of Honda's like that.

Loved the colour too. Celestial Blue. Get this though, I randomly googled last summer and found one in a classifieds for sale. Looked through the pics... and it was mine! Some 18 years after I'd sold it! And to make it even more crazy it was still owned by the guy I'd sold it to! Was so, so, tempted but the head ruled the heart.

[G50]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

Loved the colour too. Celestial Blue. Get this though, I randomly googled last summer and found one in a classifieds for sale. Looked through the pics... and it was mine! Some 18 years after I'd sold it! And to make it even more crazy it was still owned by the guy I'd sold it to! Was so, so, tempted but the head ruled the heart.

There's a couple of celestial blue ones on car and classic, £15k! I remember when they were £2k

[M33DLO]

I do love the FN2 Championship CTR.. Something about them that always gets me thinking. But...

3-5k... You say?

isleaiw1 mentioned a 130i... A very different experience to the Vtec, without a doubt. But an excellent shout.

A sorted 130i with LSD gets my vote..

I've owned 2 now. 1st was for 11 years.
Glorious engine and noise, RWD, 3ltr 6pot 265hp, manual.

[Scoobyd]

Originally Posted by G50

There's a couple of celestial blue ones on car and classic, £15k! I remember when they were £2k

If you think £15k is bad check out this one… I mean it's as mint as they come but £39,750?!!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1992-J-HO....m46890.l49286

[G50]

Originally Posted by Scoobyd

If you think £15k is bad check out this one… I mean it's as mint as they come but £39,750?!!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1992-J-HO....m46890.l49286

[rokut]

M33DLO - like this one? https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-det...at_cars&page=1

Which ones have a LSD? Or is that an aftermarket upgrade?

[rokut]

Right, been to see the car. Long story short: really liked it! It's an honest 16 year old car, well looked after with masses of invoices for everything from tyres, to specific oil being ordered for services and the big ones of regular Honda servicing, taking into account valve clearances and belt tensioner etc.
No sign of rust around the rear quarters, was started from cold and no issues there, plenty of full bore VTEC up-changes with no issue into second - so synchromesh seems fine.
Recent clutch, discs and pads, good tyres with decent tread. Guy checks out well and had it 14 years himself with lots of motorway commuting (why it now sits on 210k miles) - so think I am gonna go for it. Fun to be in a manual car again. Had forgotten what that brings to the driving experience after so many autos...

Really appreciate all the input!

[Ennoch]

Sounds like the car to buy! Anyone who keeps a car for 14 years will show themselves in the presentation of the car; it's hard to hide 14 years of abuse. It's funny that even my courtesy Crashgai is a more involving drive than the BMW purely because it has a shifter that needs stirred.