[scalbert]

A healthy discussion is welcome. Is there now a reverse of tides in moderation? I saw no major arguing. I just didn’t get to put my $0.02 in.

If I were to post pictures or do a technical analysis of each product, would it not be welcome? I guess I am confused as to why there seems to be an issue. No ill words were spoken.

In fact, I am trying to get my hands on all products as many know. If/when it occurs; they will be put on the bench and run through the paces. If I find anything suspect in any of them I will post without prejudice but will that get closed?

[scottp999]

We are paying 100's of dollars for these products. Everyone is aware of what the software does at a high level. Should we not also get to see the physical structure that we are buying? I don't see a problem with it at all. I can only tell that there are hard feelings on both sides that detract from an actual disclosure of what you are getting for your money. Sad.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by scottp999

I can only tell that there are hard feelings on both sides that detract

I just wonder what motivations those hard feelings are driving?

[possible335i2008]

IMHO I think that there has been little healthy talk about either product... each company has their fanboys propagating their own product...V3 people talk about how cheap and crappy the jb3 is and jb3 people talk about how expensive the v3 is for similar results and how shiv is not a nice person (could have used other words but wanted to be objectional)..This has all been ignited by a new advertising swing by shiv for his new products..shiv has gone out and accused terry of reverse enginering his product then bashed the jb3 with attacking the actual unit with a visual display that proves little more than the v3 being a mass manufactured product.. I think when shiv went to the track and proved what his tune could do was appropiate, let the the tune speak for itself, all this mud-slinging and bashing leads to nothing more than an over done soap opera..I think that any type of technical discussion that is non-biased would be more than welcomed..scalbert I have seen the discussions and testing that you have done and welcome any input you and others like you have to say but all this mud-slinging reminds me of a political race, let the products be broken down by 3rd parties and let the numbers speak for themselves

[scottp999]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I just wonder what motivations those hard feelings are driving?

People don't like to go to the store and bring home a product, then find out from a buddy a few weeks later that they found something slightly better. It's just human nature to defend your decision even to your own detriment or even embarrasment.

I was watching the UFC TV show yesterday and this guy thought he could not be knocked out. He begged another guy to try. This guy hit him and knocked him out cold. The person who was knocked out would not admit he had been unconcious on national tv when we all just saw it as plain as day, and in replay. The human being is amazingly capable of creating delusions to keep themselves in a just think positive, ignore the negative lala land.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by possible335i2008

but all this mud-slinging reminds me of a political race, let the products be broken down by 3rd parties and let the numbers speak for themselves

I agree, mudslinging is not needed and only detracts from the topic. Level headed discussions are welcome IMO.

[possible335i2008]

Originally Posted by scalbert

I agree, mudslinging is not needed and only detracts from the topic. Level headed discussions are welcome IMO.

Agree with you 100%

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by scottp999

I was watching the UFC TV show yesterday and this guy thought he could not be knocked out. He begged another guy to try. This guy hit him and knocked him out cold.

I saw that and he was out cold!!!!

[cliverman]

Originally Posted by scottp999

People don't like to go to the store and bring home a product, then find out from a buddy a few weeks later that they found something slightly better. It's just human nature to defend your decision even to your own detriment or even embarrasment.

I was watching the UFC TV show yesterday and this guy thought he could not be knocked out. He begged another guy to try. This guy hit him and knocked him out cold. The person who was knocked out would not admit he had been unconcious on national tv when we all just saw it as plain as day, and in replay. The human being is amazingly capable of creating delusions to keep themselves in a just think positive, ignore the negative lala land.

Dude - you hit the nail on the head.

I'm glad to see threads like that get closed. When it gets personal the sh^t needs to be stopped. It's easy for people to talk trash on the forum.

[lawdude]

Editing a thread takes some thought and effort, but can pay great dividends. Closing a thread should be the LAST resort.

[scottp999]

Taking more than you give is the definition of Capitalism. You are capitalizing on the other person. You put in an effort, make an argument, agree on price, and keep the profit. You take more than you give, or there would be no profit and the activity would stop.

When people's profit is challenged by someone else trying to also extract profit, things get nasty. Happens in all areas, it's just not usually such a close quarters battle field for two vendors to be watched by thousands of people, battling over who gets to take more than they give, and race to extract profits from us.

The battle, is on the other hand, quite interesting to watch, purley from a perspective of observing economic activity which is all based on human action.

[JOe335i]

It is because of the people who don't want to talk tech. and are after something else. At the end, those threads are pointless.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by JOe335i

It is because of the people who don't want to talk tech. and are after something else. At the end, those threads are pointless.

I am all for discussing the technical details and their abilities. There seems to be quite a bit of dissent in doing such.

[cn555ic]

I have to agree that debating something is very healthy and if it gets out of hand, the moderators should step forward...It seems as though threads are closed based upon the judgement of moderators who feel threads are useless...I am not expert in the EE field and electronically I am not really familiar with it...Seeing pics of the Procede unit and the JB3 with its guts opened is new to me, although I have opened up my Procede unit and have to say the old Haltech unit used by Vishnu looks very similar to the new unit, the difference to my eye is the size of the circuit board...I want to know and understand what the comparsions are between the two as far as components used, but the thread was never able to evolve due to moderator discretions...Moderators please allow some of these threads to continue...they are different than the other threads of V3 and JB3.....These threads are comparisons of hardware, which I am sure every prospective buyer would like to know before they purchase and invest their money....This forum is getting way too parochial....

[Dr_Dirt]

If someone has the pics can they send them to me?
I'm just interested to see the differences.
I didn't see anything wrong in the closed posts, if there is no mis-information, than a post should not be closed.

[JOe335i]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I have to agree that debating something is very healthy and if it gets out of hand, the moderators should step forward...It seems as though threads are closed based upon the judgement of moderators who feel threads are useless...I am not expert in the EE field and electronically I am not really familiar with it...Seeing pics of the Procede unit and the JB3 with its guts opened is new to me, although I have opened up my Procede unit and have to say the old Haltech unit used by Vishnu looks very similar to the new unit, the difference to my eye is the size of the circuit board...I want to know and understand what the comparsions are between the two as far as components used, but the thread was never able to evolve due to moderator discretions...Moderators please allow some of these threads to continue...they are different than the other threads of V3 and JB3.....These threads are comparisons of hardware, which I am sure every prospective buyer would like to know before they purchase and invest their money....This forum is getting way too parochial....

Wouldn't a future buyer rather worry about AFR, IAT, boost and such? Or how the cars runs? And i am pretty sure most people wont even understand the pics but take them in mis-understanding of logic that more electronics 'gizmos thingys' are better, which isnt the case at all.

Terry is even starting to beta test his on the fly(from your boost gauge, inside the car) user adjustable maps.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by JOe335i

Wouldn't a future buyer rather worry about AFR, IAT, boost and such? Or how the cars runs? And i am pretty sure most people wont even understand the pics but take them in mis-understanding of logic that more electronics 'gizmos thingys' are better, which isnt the case at all.

Terry is even starting to beta test his on the fly(from your boost gauge, inside the car) user adjustable maps.

Actually, most do not care about or understand AFR, etc. They just want it to work. However, there are those of us who like to understand how and why something is occuring. There is no right or wrong in either case and we should be open to discussing it either way.

[JOe335i]

Originally Posted by scalbert

Actually, most do not care about or understand AFR, etc. They just want it to work. However, there are those of us who like to understand how and why something is occuring. There is no right or wrong in either case and we should be open to discussing it either way.

I like to understand how things work, or at least i try. But seeing what something is made of vs how it actually works on the car and makes the car run is much more important to me.
I also believe and hope most people at least have a idea of how AFR, boost, and IAT is for some basic understanding.

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by JOe335i

I like to understand how things work, or at least i try. But seeing what something is made of vs how it actually works on the car and makes the car run is much more important to me.
I also believe and hope most people at least have a idea of how AFR, boost, and IAT is for some basic understanding.

It boils down to different levels of desire to understand. Some don't care about details. While others care about every little detail. Then the majority fall into various regions in between.

[lawdude]

I've heard about JB3 chip replacement and visualized it in my head. Seeing the picture cleared up my misperception. I'd rather see how it's done than hear and/or visualize how it's done.

[Alex@AKMotorwerk]

I know the tuners want to try and keep their boards and pictures of the internals a "secret", but in all honesty, if someone really wanted to take a closer look at it and maybe try to reverse engineer it, they can just buy one and have it in their possession to do as they please.

I think an in depth discussion with pictures and such would be great. I don't think the thread would get closed until people start coming in and bashing the other products... so maybe we'll get a good 5 mins of actual discussion before we get a "JB3/V3 FTMFW!"

[OpenFlash]

There was no good reason to close either of those threads. I'll email a the admin and see about getting those reopened.

Originally Posted by nj323ci

I know the tuners want to try and keep their boards and pictures of the internals a "secret", but in all honesty, if someone really wanted to take a closer look at it and maybe try to reverse engineer it, they can just buy one and have it in their possession to do as they please.

Why would a tuner want to keep their board a secret if they make exposing the board a necessary step in the periodic chip updating procedure? This may not be the case for the PROcede but I'm certainly proud enough of the design to show it off. Same goes for generally explaining how our features work and what they do. I've always felt the best form of marketing is information, not smoke and mirrors. By information, I'm not promoting posting up maps, source code or actual algorithms used for internal calculations. Because everyone works very hard to develop that and posting them up has no benefit to anyone other than those trying to copy the product.

When you buy a car, are you not allowed to look at the engine BEFORE you sign the papers and take it home? If a dealership said NO. Or flipped out if you took a picture and showed your friends (all of whom are also interested in cars), wouldn't you be just a little bit surprised?

Terry went so far as to say that I did "misrepresented" his product. What nonsense. I took a picture of it. Nothing more, nothing less. It is a product that is DESIGNED to be opened by the end user. He just got upset when I took a picture of next to the our product. If I had done the trendy thing and created a fake account to post up the picture, I wonder what the reaction would have been.

Shiv