[M_Six]

Our house has a light switch by the garage side door which controls the light outside the door. It also turns on the floodlight in our back yard. There is another switch near our bed that also controls these two lights. I assume the woman who had this house built wanted a switch near the bed to light up the back yard if she heard a noise or whatever. I've used it intentionally maybe 3 times since we bought this place 20 years ago.

This is considered a 4-way switch, right? Two switches that control the same two lights? If so, is there a way to convert each of these switches to single pole? The only switch I really need to work properly is the one by the garage side door. Can I just disconnect and cap the extra traveler wires?

[2000cs]

Not an electrician but have fooled around with these. I think you have a 3-way setup, not 4-way. There are several ways these can be wired (google images may help you), but basically the two switches control one light circuit. Thus, to have each switch control only one light, I think you have to split the circuit - rewire it - so both lights have a power source which is switched.

You could re-do the wiring in the switches so each has a supply which is unswitched (they are now independent). In the switch box that has power from the breaker, join the wires (clip off the red), then pig tail white and black to the new two-pole switch in that box. Also the bare ground of course. In the other switch box, again the switch gets changed out and the two-pole is wired with the white, black and ground. Now you have independently fed the two switches, so they can control different things. They’re on the same circuit (breaker), but operate independently. Check local code to be sure there is no issue in your area.

The problem, which you need to address before doing the above, is that only one of the switches has wire running to the light circuit. You can go to the box for the first wire, and there disconnect the wire that runs to the second light. But to operate that second light you need to run a new wire from it to the second switch. It is that last step that could be difficult, depending on access to the walls, etc.

It probably isn’t worth the effort/cost to split them, but it is possible.

[unluky]

It's gonna depend on the way it is wired for sure. If they are full loops that are tied together at the box with the switch - you can do what you want - even add another switch to control them independently.

But if those are all on one loop that is connected to the switch - you won't be able to do that. If it was done when the house was built - I suspect this is what was done to save the wire.

Gonna have to crack it open to see.

[DETRoadster]

2000cs is correct. What you have there is a 3-way switch. 2 switches that control the same light (or lights). Doesnt matter if it's 2 switches controlling 1 light, 2 light, or 100 lights. The lights are all just strung together so as far as the switches know they are just turning soemthing on or off.

Like unluky said you gotta pull those switch plates off and see what you have in there. Pop the breaker off, pull the switch plates, unscrew the switches, and post up some photos of the wiring to the switches.

Yes, there should be a way to convert both to single pole but we need to see what's there now as there's multiple ways to wire a 3-way switch. All of them weird, confusing, and requiring multiple checks of Google Image.

[M_Six]

Okay, thanks folks. I'll get some pics up soon.

[M_Six]

While we're talking about 3-way and 4-way switches, we have hallway lights that are controlled by 3 switches. Is that a 4-way switch? If not, then what exactly is a 4-way switch?

[2000cs]

Originally Posted by M_Six

While we're talking about 3-way and 4-way switches, we have hallway lights that are controlled by 3 switches. Is that a 4-way switch? If not, then what exactly is a 4-way switch?

This might help: https://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html

Basically a 4-way has the fourth connection so you can have 3 or more switches controlling a circuit, instead of the two you have (each of yours being a 3-way).

[kscarrol]

Haven't heard back from Mark, maybe he forgot to pop the breaker...

[vreihen16]

Originally Posted by kscarrol

Haven't heard back from Mark, maybe he forgot to pop the breaker...

I'd be shocked.....

[M_Six]

No, I've just been playing with other new toys. Got my door sensors today. Just finished installing them and getting them to come up in HomeKit.

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by 2000cs

This might help: https://www.electrical101.com/4way-switches.html

Basically a 4-way has the fourth connection so you can have 3 or more switches controlling a circuit, instead of the two you have (each of yours being a 3-way).

Wait, the one I described above has 3 switches controlling that circuit. What am I missing?

Oh, never mind. I think I get it. In my situation, with 3 switches controlling one set of lights, there are two 3-way switches and one 4-way switch?

I ask because the Wemo 3-way switch replacement controller specifically says it won't work with a 4-way switch. But I was assuming that all switches on a 3-switch + light circuit were 4-way switches.

[2000cs]

Originally Posted by M_Six

Wait, the one I described above has 3 switches controlling that circuit. What am I missing?

Oh, never mind. I think I get it. In my situation, with 3 switches controlling one set of lights, there are two 3-way switches and one 4-way switch?

I ask because the Wemo 3-way switch replacement controller specifically says it won't work with a 4-way switch. But I was assuming that all switches on a 3-switch + light circuit were 4-way switches.

My apologies. My response was referring to the OP, and I should have been clear. Your second post likely has at least one 4-way switch in the circuit (hallway) you described.

The only way to know exactly what you have in the hallway is to open up the switch covers and look at them. There are multiple ways this could have been wired when it was done, so putting eyes on it is the best approach. I assume if there is one 3-way the Wemo will work, but I don’t know for certain.

[M_Six]

I finally got around to opening those switches and grabbing some pics. The first pic is the switch in the garage. With the switch in the down position, the red wire is hot, the others are not. In the up position all the wires are hot.

The second pic is the switch in the bedroom. In the up position, the red and black wires are hot, the white is not. And again, all are hot if the switch is in the down position.

To recap, these switches turn on an entry light by the garage side door and also a set of floodlights just outside the bedroom window. I want to be able to turn the entry light on without turning on the floodlights. If I can only light the entry light, that's fine. I don't really need the floodlights. The bulbs in the floods still work and they were here when we bought the house 20 years ago, so they obviously get no use.

I'm thinking since the bedroom switch has two hot wires with the switch open, then the line from the breaker box goes to the bedroom switch, right? And the red line is just a traveller wire to the other switch? If so, I think I'm screwed with wanting to have them work independently or just to have the garage entry light work w/o lighting the floods.

EDIT: One more piece of info. The whole circuit is on the same breaker as the bedroom lights and sockets.

[ryan stewart]

3 way, red is (usually) the traveler, and yes you're basically screwed with a traditional setup.

Nobody runs multiple loops for that, just supply to the box nearest to panel usually, then run the 3 conductor to the second switch, then two conductor to the load.

Options are you could bypass the first switch with line power by passing it up to the second switch and blank it out, or vice versa by just tying the black off to the load and removing the traveler. You might be able to use the secondary switch to control a light in the first box using the traveler but that is about it.

However you could get something like a z-wave smart switch and use it to trigger a routine on another light, but you'd need two smart switches and a controller for that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiway_switching

Multiway switching is a lot less scary than it seems, its really just a conditional toggle at that point, the traveler carries the line in the "off" position and then the second switch gets the decision, etc.

[ryan stewart]

Wait, read the bottom of your other post.

The switch with the two black wires is in the bedroom? Then you can probably get the "no floodlight option" because black can be both line and load. I suspect those two wires tied in are each run to the load side, remove one and turn the switch on and see what happens. Usually the line (aka HOT) is going to the switch nearest to the panel and if youre carrying line to other circuits its protocol to tie them with a nut and hang a pigtail for the switch in the box (like they did with with the common/neutral), not wire them into the switch.

You can kill the circuit in the panel but I would suggest investing in one of these: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-To...T1PR/317460355 just in case. Getting hit with 120 hurts.

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by ryan stewart

Wait, read the bottom of your other post.

The switch with the two black wires is in the bedroom? Then you can probably get the "no floodlight option" because black can be both line and load. I suspect those two wires tied in are each run to the load side, remove one and turn the switch on and see what happens. Usually the line (aka HOT) is going to the switch nearest to the panel and if youre carrying line to other circuits its protocol to tie them with a nut and hang a pigtail for the switch in the box (like they did with with the common/neutral), not wire them into the switch.

You can kill the circuit in the panel but I would suggest investing in one of these: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-To...T1PR/317460355 just in case. Getting hit with 120 hurts.

The switch with the two black wires is in the garage. But the circuit itself is part of the bedroom lights and sockets breaker. And I have that exact tester pen. It's literally a lifesaver.

I finally called an electrician I've worked with before. Hopefully he can get here in a day or two. Yesterday I went to install a Wemo switch in a simple 3-way (or so I thought) and was baffled to find a black wire tied to a white neutral and a white wire carrying the load. I can only guess that the electrician who put in the original circuit just reversed the normal use of the wires, but I need to be sure before I burn the house down.

EDIT: Wow, this may be how the circuit with the joined white and black wires is configured. I'll have to pull down the light fixture and see if there is just a white neutral running to it.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by M_Six

The switch with the two black wires is in the garage. But the circuit itself is part of the bedroom lights and sockets breaker. And I have that exact tester pen. It's literally a lifesaver.

I finally called an electrician I've worked with before. Hopefully he can get here in a day or two. Yesterday I went to install a Wemo switch in a simple 3-way (or so I thought) and was baffled to find a black wire tied to a white neutral and a white wire carrying the load. I can only guess that the electrician who put in the original circuit just reversed the normal use of the wires, but I need to be sure before I burn the house down.

EDIT: Wow, this may be how the circuit with the joined white and black wires is configured. I'll have to pull down the light fixture and see if there is just a white neutral running to it.

The "California 3-Way"?! I thought that was where everyone walked away cocaine stained clothes and a case of herpes. Never knew it referred to home wiring.

I'm pretty sure that's what my 1960s house has for light wiring in the basement. It's bizarre, befuddling, and terrifying. What the schematic doesn't show you is that hot and neutral going back to the mains are going to different breakers. Yeah. So what that means is you cruise up to do some wiring work and start flipping breakers till the bulb goes out. All you've done is killed one half of the circuit. So the other half going to the now out bulb is still hot. WTF. I wanted to tap into a circuit to add a bulb and was like "nope. Forget it. I'll just run a new circuit."

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

The "California 3-Way"?! I thought that was where everyone walked away cocaine stained clothes and a case of herpes. Never knew it referred to home wiring.

I'm pretty sure that's what my 1960s house has for light wiring in the basement. It's bizarre, befuddling, and terrifying. What the schematic doesn't show you is that hot and neutral going back to the mains are going to different breakers. Yeah. So what that means is you cruise up to do some wiring work and start flipping breakers till the bulb goes out. All you've done is killed one half of the circuit. So the other half going to the now out bulb is still hot. WTF. I wanted to tap into a circuit to add a bulb and was like "nope. Forget it. I'll just run a new circuit."

And Wemo warns you about that. Always check all the wires to make sure none are still hot after tripping the breaker. This particular light is not a big deal if I can't automate it. But it's part of a 3-switch panel where I need the other two lights to be automated, so I figured I'd just do all three. But now I'm worried all three circuits might be like this.

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by M_Six

And Wemo warns you about that. Always check all the wires to make sure none are still hot after tripping the breaker.

Yeah, what can I say? I was young, naive, and inexperienced with 3-ways. I thought I was taking precautions to protect myself and ended up getting burned.

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by DETRoadster

Yeah, what can I say? I was young, naive, and inexperienced with 3-ways. I thought I was taking precautions to protect myself and ended up getting burned.

Been there, done that. I was working on a light post out in the yard that I assumed was on the same circuit as the rest of the exterior lights. Nope. Found out the hard way it was on a different circuit.

[kscarrol]

I think you two are talking about very different three ways...

[DETRoadster]

Originally Posted by kscarrol

I think you two are talking about very different three ways...

You get me