[Sparky66]

I read comments like this on N54Tech.com/forums posted recently by Terry and he seems to think that all Procede users are being fooled into believing that we are covered for any Tune Invisibility for warranty protection . Basically I'd like to hear Shiv's side as I'm sure Shiv understands a lot more clearly what he's doing with the Procede.

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS

Just to throw this out there.
Part of the reason we went away from CPS isolation and solenoid isolation was for diagnostic invisibility purposes. It is way too easy for BMW/PUMA to check internal datalogs and spot a tune with them IMHO. It's the same reason we don't offer a half-assed speed delimiter.

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS

The CPS issue is rather simple, there are other timing sensors on the car that simply don't match when you alter CPS.

The solenoid issue gets a little more complex. When you dummy the solenoids with a fixed resistor, like say a 120ohm/25W like is used on the V3 Rev1, the current going in to the ECU will vary dramatically from what you would see with an active 10ohm solenoid. All this business about torque targeting, PID settings, DS causing red flags, etc, is all specific to his solenoid control system and not even relevant to other systems. But IMHO the entire arrangement is flawed from an invisibility perspective.

Like the speed delimiter, just because you don't get a limp code when you alter the CPS, dummy the solenoids, or clamp 1/3 of the speed inputs, doesn't mean BMW/PUMA can't easily spot those variances on the back end.

[OpenFlash]

lol... let me get this straight:

-The JB3 doesn't even offset timing. Meaning that DME logged ignition advance numbers are several degrees lower than they are stock. Same as running a stock car on low grade gas.

-The JB3, by virtue of its simplistic boost control system, pisses of the factory DME so much that it actually closes the throttle between 4200-4700rpm.

-The JB3 doesn't even pass along analog signals. Instead, it intercepts analog signals inputs and outputs PWM signals and relies on the factory ECU's input filters to convert it back to analog.

And it's the PROcede that risks invisibility? I have yet to hear of anyone running a Doomsday map getting flagged by the dealership. I don't believe this is the case with other tunes that claim invisibility.

The truth is that Terry could not get CPS offsetting to work. Just like he couldn't get speed limiting to work. This pull-to-ground hardware design approach couldn't support it despite all his efforts and requests from his customers. These claims of him deciding not to add these features due to diagnostic invisibility concerns are relatively new. They only came out once it was verified that the JB3 doesn't do what it is supposed to do (CPS offsetting) and will never to do something that was on the possible to-do list (speed delimiting). When you can't do something, might as well tell everyone why doing it is bad. Might fool enough people. Like the guy in post #3.

I think Terry should spend more time testing his new chip with v32.1 than spread misinformation about a competitors tune.

Shiv

[**335i**]

one thing about warranty: does doomsday maps are invisible for dealership? do only nondoomsday maps are possible to track? if i have 29.1.1 version can i use doomsday maps or only nondoomsday maps?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by **335i**

one thing about warranty: does doomsday maps are invisible for dealership? do only nondoomsday maps are possible to track? if i have 29.1.1 version can i use doomsday maps or only nondoomsday maps?

If you are pre-29.2, you can run either Doomsday or nonDoomday maps. No issues either way. Both are just as track-able. Both make the same power. If you are post 29.2, you should stick with Doomsday maps since they have proven to be invisible.

Shiv

[letterkills155]

LOL

[**335i**]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Since you are pre-29.2, you can run either Doomsday or nonDoomday maps. No issues either way. Both are just as track-able. Both make the same power. If you were post 29.2, you should stick with Doomsday maps since they have proven to be invisible.

Shiv

so i can use doomsday and nondoomsday okay. maybe somebody can tell me this:

those numbers E89X-08-03-520 say that i have 29.1.1 concerning this link http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...32&postcount=7 ??? i was at my dealer they red my key and got those numbers E89X-08-03-520 http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8342/dataln9.jpg

because my dealer sais that i have version E89X-08-03-520 and he not saying anything about that i have 29. or 32 version. Do my dealer dont know nothing or i dont
understand nothing

p.s

i was also cheking in my car by myself: got those numbers:

SW
79.50.c1
Kodierdaten:08.13.0c.19
Conf. Prog:E89X-08-03-520

[Jred22]

I'm not a fan boy, shit i don't even have a tune for my 335i, but I just can't help but notice how desperate you sound. When i first jumped on e90post i thought you were informative and well respected but it didn't take long for me to realize how fucking lame you sound bro. You can't even respond to a post without mentioning the JB3. "The JB3 doesn't even offset timing". Oh I'm sorry but no one gives a fuck. It didn't take long for me to realize that you like to blow minor issues out of the water to make your over priced, over marketed and under performing product sells its quota for the week. I see a whole lot of talk from you but very little evidence to back up your claims of tuning superiority. Stick to fucking over jackasses in Subaru's. Thanks.

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

lol... let me get this straight:

-The JB3 doesn't even offset timing. Meaning that DME logged ignition advance numbers are several degrees lower than they are stock. Same as running a stock car on low grade gas.

-The JB3, by virtue of its simplistic boost control system, pisses of the factory DME so much that it actually closes the throttle between 4200-4700rpm.

-The JB3 doesn't even pass along analog signals. Instead, it intercepts analog signals inputs and outputs PWM signals and relies on the factory ECU's input filters to convert it back to analog.

And it's the PROcede that risks invisibility? I have yet to hear of anyone running a Doomsday map getting flagged by the dealership. I don't believe this is the case with other tunes that claim invisibility.

The truth is that Terry could not get CPS offsetting to work. Just like he couldn't get speed limiting to work. This pull-to-ground hardware design approach couldn't support it despite all his efforts and requests from his customers. These claims of him deciding not to add these features due to diagnostic invisibility concerns are relatively new. Funny how he never mentioned it earlier.

Shiv

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by **335i**

so i can use doomsday and nondoomsday okay. maybe somebody can tell me this:

those numbers E89X-08-03-520 say that i have 29.1.1 concerning this link http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...32&postcount=7 ??? i was at my dealer they red my key and got those numbers E89X-08-03-520 http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8342/dataln9.jpg

because my dealer sais that i have version E89X-08-03-520 and he not saying anything about that i have 29. or 32 version. Do my dealer dont know nothing or i dont
understand nothing

p.s

i was also cheking in my car by myself: got those numbers:

SW
79.50.c1
Kodierdaten:08.13.0c.19
Conf. Prog:E89X-08-03-520

Honestly, I don't know what version you are running with the info provided. Best bet would be to ask a tech what you are running. There is also a way to see what you have through idrive. But I don't have idrive so I haven't tested it myself.

But if in doubt, just play it safe and run the Doomsday maps. With the current maps, they drive just like nonDD maps.

Originally Posted by Jred22

I'm not a fan boy, shit i don't even have a tune for my 335i, but I just can't help but notice how desperate you sound. When i first jumped on e90post i thought you were informative and well respected but it didn't take long for me to realize how fucking lame you sound bro. You can't even respond to a post without mentioning the JB3. "The JB3 doesn't even offset timing". Oh I'm sorry but no one gives a fuck. It didn't take long for me to realize that you like to blow minor issues out of the water to make your over priced, over marketed and under performing product sells its quota for the week. I see a whole lot of talk from you but very little evidence to back up your claims of tuning superiority. Stick to fucking over jackasses in Subaru's. Thanks.

First, watch the language. There are children reading this board. And second, according to this post of yours, you've already purchased a JB3. Let us know how it works for you.

shiv

[Sparky66]

Lol Shiv...............It makes me laugh on N54tech forums where now the discussion seems to have evolved as to why he won't be implementing a JB3 system that can run aftermarket turbo's or a meth.injection system. JB3 users are asking why not ?????.....and this is the best excuse he can offer his loyal JB3 servants.

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS

I'm sure I will catch flack for this, but using a piggyback to tune an aftermarket turbo setup is just slapping lipstick on a pig. You really need a full flash option at that point. Piggybacks are great for working the stock power curve and maintaining a factory warranty, but the further you stray away from that model the more of a compromise it becomes. For the sake of the industry hopefully flash tuning will come before turbo kits take off. And BMS will happily offer flash maps for aftermarket turbos.

Originally Posted by Terry @ BMS

Things like meth injection, larger turbos, nitrous, etc, can be a lot of fun. But it is really more of a personal indulgence than anything else. 80% of BMS' customer base is interested in tune only performance, 18% is looking for performance with bolt on mods (downpipes, intercoolers, etc), and its just that last 2% that would even consider something crazy like meth injection or larger turbos.

Sounds to me, Terry won't be implementing aftermarket turbo's or a meth.injection not because he thinks none of the N54 community will be interested but more to the point - HE CAN'T USING A JB3 piggyback as the hardware won't allow for it and he does know how to incorporate CPS offset for timing control.

[WOPALX]

Shiv,

So your saying that running a JB3 the DME will log ignition advance numbers that are not normal and that this is something that may be logged and readable by BMW?

One thing you did not really answer was that the speed delimit feature clamps a speed reading. What Terry is saying is the other 2 don't match and that this data may be logged by the DME thus causing issues. Is this true or false? Or is it only really testable by someone who has actually exceeded the normal limit in a delimited car?

Cheers,

S

P.S. latest beta maps rock

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

lol... let me get this straight:

-The JB3 doesn't even offset timing. Meaning that DME logged ignition advance numbers are several degrees lower than they are stock. Same as running a stock car on low grade gas.

-The JB3, by virtue of its simplistic boost control system, pisses of the factory DME so much that it actually closes the throttle between 4200-4700rpm.

-The JB3 doesn't even pass along analog signals. Instead, it intercepts analog signals inputs and outputs PWM signals and relies on the factory ECU's input filters to convert it back to analog.

And it's the PROcede that risks invisibility? I have yet to hear of anyone running a Doomsday map getting flagged by the dealership. I don't believe this is the case with other tunes that claim invisibility.

The truth is that Terry could not get CPS offsetting to work. Just like he couldn't get speed limiting to work. This pull-to-ground hardware design approach couldn't support it despite all his efforts and requests from his customers. These claims of him deciding not to add these features due to diagnostic invisibility concerns are relatively new. They only came out once it was verified that the JB3 doesn't do what it is supposed to do (CPS offsetting) and will never to do something that was on the possible to-do list (speed delimiting). When you can't do something, might as well tell everyone why doing it is bad. Might fool enough people. Like the guy in post #3.

I think Terry should spend more time testing his new chip with v32.2 than spread misinformation about a competitors tune.

Shiv

[**335i**]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Honestly, I don't know what version you are running with the info provided. Best bet would be to ask a tech what you are running. There is also a way to see what you have through idrive. But I don't have idrive so I haven't tested it myself.

But if in doubt, just play it safe and run the Doomsday maps. With the current maps, they drive just like nonDD maps.


shiv

for me is strange how other people manage to know what version they have using those numbers

thanks Shiv, so u say even if i have 29.1.1 version i can load doomsday maps and it will be okay? so i can do it when i order rev II i will write that you could load doomsday map

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by WOPALX

Shiv,

So your saying that running a JB3 the DME will log ignition advance numbers that are not normal and that this is something that may be logged and readable by BMW?

Yep. Same with throttle activity. But is it something that BMW will ever use to prove that a car was tuned? I could try to scare people and say, yes. But I don't know for sure. Nor do I really care. It has nothing to do with my product. That's up to Terry to address or ignore.

One thing you did not really answer was that the speed delimit feature clamps a speed reading. What Terry is saying is the other 2 don't match and that this data may be logged by the DME thus causing issues. Is this true or false? Or is it only really testable by someone who has actually exceeded the normal limit in a delimited car?

There's only one speed reading going into a the factory DME. The other speed inputs go into the stability control/ABS modules. There have been plenty of people who have tested the speed limiter feature out (including myself) and have not been flagged by any dealer or revealed in any diagnostic report as any speed implausibility codes. There's a bit more to it than what Terry is suggesting. But that's up to him to research if he chooses to. I'll just let the results speak for themselves.

P.S. latest beta maps rock

Glad to hear it!

Originally Posted by **335i**

for me is strange how other people manage to know what version they have using those numbers

thanks Shiv, so u say even if i have 29.1.1 version i can load doomsday maps and it will be okay? so i can do it when i order rev II i will write that you could load doomsday map

Yep, just load the appropriate Doomsday map and you should be all set. Just specify what you need preloaded into the PROcede when you place the order.

Cheers,
shiv

[**335i**]

@Shiv

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...32&postcount=7 this link was not working check it now 29.1.1 E89X-08-03-520 sais like it

Originally Posted by **335i**

for me is strange how other people manage to know what version they have using those numbers

thanks Shiv, so u say even if i have 29.1.1 version i can load doomsday maps and it will be okay? so i can do it when i order rev II i will write that you could load doomsday map

[WOPALX]

Shiv,

Cool, that explanation makes more sense.

Cheers,

S

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yep. Same with throttle activity. But is it something that BMW will ever use to prove that a car was tuned? I could try to scare people and say, yes. But I don't know for sure. Nor do I really care. It has nothing to do with my product. That's up to Terry to address or ignore.



There's only one speed reading going into a the factory DME. The other speed inputs go into the stability control/ABS modules. There have been plenty of people who have tested the speed limiter feature out (including myself) and have not been flagged by any dealer or revealed in any diagnostic report as any speed implausibility codes. There's a bit more to it than what Terry is suggesting. But that's up to him to research if he chooses to. I'll just let the results speak for themselves.



Glad to hear it!

Cheers,
shiv

[lawdude]

Originally Posted by Jred22

I'm not a fan boy, shit i don't even have a tune for my 335i,

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

And second, according to this post of yours, you've already purchased a JB3. Let us know how it works for you.

I just snarfed my Dom Perignon.

[**335i**]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Yep, just load the appropriate Doomsday map and you should be all set. Just specify what you need preloaded into the PROcede when you place the order.

Cheers,
shiv

thanks shivwill place order on revII and dual air filters i think it will be stage 1 with dual air filters and latest tested doomsday map

p.s those filters with what they can be cleaned from time to time?

[JoeyFiasco]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

First, watch the language. There are children reading this board. And second, according to this post of yours, you've already purchased a JB3. Let us know how it works for you.

shiv

Jesus..

[BALLAJL15]

Originally Posted by Jred22

I'm not a fan boy, shit i don't even have a tune for my 335i, but I just can't help but notice how desperate you sound. When i first jumped on e90post i thought you were informative and well respected but it didn't take long for me to realize how fucking lame you sound bro. You can't even respond to a post without mentioning the JB3. "The JB3 doesn't even offset timing". Oh I'm sorry but no one gives a fuck. It didn't take long for me to realize that you like to blow minor issues out of the water to make your over priced, over marketed and under performing product sells its quota for the week. I see a whole lot of talk from you but very little evidence to back up your claims of tuning superiority. Stick to fucking over jackasses in Subaru's. Thanks.

You are the reason people disregard information based on personal liking of a product. So you dont care if a tune controls timing? If so, you have no place even owning a car. Besides that even if you do like the JB you should still be inquisitive to know if all the info about it is true. (Blow little issues out of the water?) Do you even have any idea of what you are talking about? Shivs comments about the JB are what we all know is fact found out by Scalbert. Under performing product? Where do you get this info from, last time I looked at drag times... A V3 car was #1. And you see no evidence for him to back up his claims? Maybe you should read the forum on the bench tests.

[Sparky66]

:

[cn555ic]

lol

[RiXst3r]

To answer the original question:

No, its not at risk. Its still invisible... and the reason why it is invisible is because when you isolate the solenoids, you can control them however you want, and the ECU is none the wiser. Also, when you offset timing to keep the internal timing tables of the DME similar to that of a stock car running on premium gasoline, then that is also more invisible.

The more parameters you can control and isolate to appear like a stock car running on premium gas, the more invisible your tune becomes... not the other way around.

The best way to see "how" invisible your tune is, is to see if it protests the way its running. Signs of a DME that is not happy are things like excessive throttle closure, "dips" in power that you can feel, and if you have an OBDII logger, you can monitor these things, along with the car pulling timing if it detects knock. I've logged all these things with V3 and Stock, and they look the same.

All current tunes that claim invisibility are as they claim.

Just my 2c...

[scalbert]

Originally Posted by Sparky66

I read comments like this on N54Tech.com/forums posted recently by Terry and he seems to think that all Procede users are being fooled into believing that we are covered for any Tune Invisibility for warranty protection . Basically I'd like to hear Shiv's side as I'm sure Shiv understands a lot more clearly what he's doing with the Procede.

Ask what specific (not generalities) channels are logged to see anything being asserted. I suspect no or a hollow answer will be the return on the query.