1er coupe diesel for U.S .???

BForbes · 06-07-2007, 09:20 AM

I've been thinking lately that BMW needs to offer a new 1er diesel in the states from the start. I mean the brand always gives us a little surprise. I mean nobody saw twin-turbo coming right? Anyways, The 2008 Honda Accord will drop the hybrid and get to diesel. Honda promises AMAZING mpg. Check it out.

"British motoring mag Autocar is reporting that the new Accord diesel we recently told you about will get really good mileage. That might seem like a no-brainer, but when we say "really good," we mean it. Like more than 60 mpg really good. Autocar says the diesel will be good for as much as 62.8 mpg when it appears in a dealership near you. That's 52.3 mpg here in the States, by the way. Honda's new clean diesel is apparently based on the current 2.2 i-CTDi, and when fitted in a Euro Accord, it achieved that staggering 62.8 mpg at a recent diesel technology convention in California.

Besides the stellar fuel economy rating, these new diesels wear the "clean" tag proudly. The catalytic converter on these Honda diesels is helping it meet the strict US (especially in California) emissions standards, running as cleanly as gas engines. They do it by converting nitrogen into ammonia, which is then used to further diminish the remaining NOx gases. The new Accords should show up in September, but we're not sure if the diesel will be available from the get-go or if it will appear down the road."

Lets go 1er coupe!!!

PACIFICONE2003 · 06-07-2007, 09:55 AM

I believe you are correct that BMW needs to bring a Diesel 1er to the US. Their official position in Nicht! With the "clean" diesel engines available now by VW and DaimlerChrysler via Bluetec, you will see a surge in German diesels (VW and Daimler) hitting the US shore over the next couple of years. Their sales approach will be pushing German engineering with 30-40% better fuel mileage, and proved technology (vs. Hybrids). BlueTec is a special, patented exhaust gas treatment system that has two variants. The first is used in the E 320 BlueTec and combines an oxidizing catalytic converter and particulate filter with an additional catalytic converter, while in the other version a nontoxic solution known as AdBlue is injected into the exhaust gas flow. This releases ammonia, which breaks down as much as 80 percent of the nitrogen oxide into harmless nitrogen and water. Which vehicle gets what version depends on vehicle concept and weight, as well as the required reduction of nitrogen-oxide emissions. AdBlue will be stored in a special 6-gallon tank that has to be refilled at the service intervals. The consumption of AdBlue amounts to approximately 1 percent of the burnt fuel. In 2008, Mercedes-Benz plans to introduce three additional BlueTec models with AdBlue injection that comply to the Bin 5 norm in all 50 states (the R-, M- and GL-Class).
In Honda's treatment system, exhaust flows through a plasma reactor, or gaseous layer of electrically charged atoms, according to a copy of the U.S. patent obtained by Bloomberg News. That separates out harmful nitrogen oxides and forms nitrogen dioxide that is then reduced or absorbed by alkali metals and silver. (ie, no additional tanks to fill!)

WolfsburgerMitFries · 06-07-2007, 11:46 AM

I can see no use for diesels. The only advantage offered by owning a diesel is the ability to siphon off fuel from some nearby heavy equipment, or maybe church buses.

amdmaxx · 06-07-2007, 11:56 AM

U are being foolish and ignorant..
I'd love to have a hatch diesel in US.. Give me practicality, BMW handling and diesel economy...

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

I can see no use for diesels. The only advantage offered by owning a diesel is the ability to siphon off fuel from some nearby heavy equipment, or maybe church buses.

PACIFICONE2003 · 06-07-2007, 11:58 AM

With diesel fuel 21% less expensive then premium, 30-40% better fuel economy, more torque.....I would need to disagree.

123d · 06-07-2007, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

I can see no use for diesels. The only advantage offered by owning a diesel is the ability to siphon off fuel from some nearby heavy equipment, or maybe church buses.

You are edumicated!!

123d (formally 125d)

BForbes · 06-07-2007, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amdmaxx

U are being foolish and ignorant..
I'd love to have a hatch diesel in US.. Give me practicality, BMW handling and diesel economy...

Ditto.

WolfsburgerMitFries · 06-07-2007, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amdmaxx

U are being foolish and ignorant..
I'd love to have a hatch diesel in US.. Give me practicality, BMW handling and diesel economy...

Actually I'm being very sane. The BMW brand is about lifestyle and sporting performance, not practicality. If you want practicality, go get a 4 cylinder minivan of some sort or a Subaru wagon. That's why hatchbacks don't sell in the US market, everybody either has a spare truck/van/SUV or access to one. BMWs are NOT utilitarian vehicles for schlepping a bunch of crap around, that's being foolish and ignorant my friend...that's demonstrating a comprehensive misunderstanding of what the the BMW brand is about.

Its that same mentality you demonstrate that dilutes a performance brand like BMW. Why the hell is there a 4 door M3? That product makes no sense. It only exists to pacify Joe Mittlemanager who, in the midst of his midlife crisis, thinks he needs to be seen in an M3 at the office, but still needs to drag his wife and kids around after hours, instead of being realistic about his lifestyle.

PACIFICONE2003 · 06-07-2007, 02:50 PM

Quote from Auto Channel:

"While the BMW Group has been offering Diesel vehicles in Europe since 1983 and 67% of the BMW sales there are Diesel models today, the acceptance of this type of engine has been increasing among potential vehicle customers in the US market".

How can 67% of Europeans be wrong?

amdmaxx · 06-07-2007, 10:58 PM

Wolf = OWNED by Pacific..
Also, every 4th station in US serves diesel.. Diesel is now clean in US and I also drive VW TDI Golf and it got my from New York to Miami on 2 tanks of gas (1309 miles)..
Read 330d review from 4car.. Plenty of performance... Read Audi A8 TDi review or R10 winning diesel car..
Also, read recent news regarding Honda Accord abandoning hybrid and releasing next gen accord with 55mpg diesel engine... Diesel is the future withtoday's gas prices, whether u like it or not..
135 for track/enthusiasts and 1xx diesel for the rest of us..

WolfsburgerMitFries · 06-08-2007, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amdmaxx

Wolf = OWNED by Pacific..

See, not really. The European market is very different than the US market due to all the taxes on fuel for things like health care that makes fuel significantly more expensive. You're trying to turn the 1 series into a Golf (or its little brother the Polo), or Fit. If you only get 25MPG combined fuel economy, your yearly gas bill for 12K miles is $1200 @ $2.50 a gallon, if gas goes from $2.50 to $3.50 a gallon your annual fuel bill goes up $400 a year. If you can't afford that, you can't afford a BMW. Andmaxx it sounds to me that realistically, the vehicle that meets your needs is a Fit, Yaris, or some other type of clown car, like maybe Hyundai and Kia...they both beat BMW on the latest JD Powers survey so they must be better cars, after all, you believe statistics don't you? At least when I quote statistics, I can doccument them, and more importantly they come from a reputable source. If you think I'm a fool, then you're very much mistaken. Andmaxx = owned by me!

http://www.jdpower.com/press-release...spx?id=2007088

PACIFICONE2003 · 06-08-2007, 07:45 AM

Yes, I do understand that Europeans get heavily taxed on their petrol and $400 isn’t a lot of money (using 12,000 a year, I actually drive closer to 25,000). But, there is a bigger picture that is being overlooked. We have a limited resource that needs to be conserved. Why in the US do we have 2 cars (non-hybrid) that are getting better than 40 MPG (one of which my wife drives) and Europeans have 118 available (at last count). Further, I am getting tired of the wack jobs in the Middle East getting rich off of our money to turn around investing in terrorist groups and “peaceful….”my ass”, nuclear programs. I do understand that we don’t buy most of our fuel directly from these “unfriendly” markets but, it does affect world prices. However, I want driving dynamics that is offered by BMW. You my kick and scream about diesels, but, in a recent pole, 76% of Americans want better fuel economy for similiar reasons. Diesels and Hybrids will start becoming the norm.

WolfsburgerMitFries · 06-08-2007, 09:32 AM

Those are all excellent points Pacificone2003, and I'm not as anti-diesel as I might first appear. I also do have to wonder about some of your undoccumented statistics. I'll bet if I hired a professional polling firm and asked Americans "do you want cars that deliver better fuel economy?" I could come up with a figure quite a bit higher than 76%.

The point is, there's a pile of things that can be done to increase fuel economy in any car. Things like Electric water pumps, Electric power steering, regenerative braking/alternator management in conjunction with start/stop technology, low rolling resistance tires, Direct fuel injection, higher efficency dual clutch (2nd gen with dry clutch assembly) transmissions to replace conventional automatics....Then you could additionally look at the vehicles themselves. Figure out ways to loose weight in vehicles, and finally incentivize new vehicle purchasers to downsize to a realistic and smaller vehicle by putting a large tax on absurd vehicles like the outrageously oversized Excursion/H2/Land Cruisers.

But you see, with the 1 series, We're already starting out with one of the smallest 4 seat cars the road, and its comparitively lightweight by todays standards. Forget about 2200 pound vehicles from the 1980's, crash protection standards have done away with that, but 3000ish pounds shouldn't be that hard to achieve. The 1 series has reasonably small engines to begin with, and its going to offer good economy right out of the box even with the inline 6s.

My whole point is, some people approach diesels as if they were some holy grail, or the only way to good fuel economy, but they're not. If you want to make noises about getting more fuel efficient cars, go re-read all the points I made in the 2nd paragraph and push for the implementation of those technologies.

123d · 06-08-2007, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

...I'm not as anti-diesel as I might first appear...

Then please explian your statment that started the argument:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

I can see no use for diesels. The only advantage offered by owning a diesel is the ability to siphon off fuel from some nearby heavy equipment, or maybe church buses.

If you only wanted to start a debate on anything and everything else (for example why hatchbacks diulte BMW; how European market is different for NA; how people say things with out stats), grow up. Only now do you come back to diesels?!?

BTW, where are your stats, or some website backing your original statment about diesels. Since we know that if it is on the web is must be true.

PACIFICONE2003 · 06-08-2007, 10:27 AM

Agree. Diesel is only a part of the solution!

aesthetect · 06-08-2007, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

The point is, there's a pile of things that can be done to increase fuel economy in any car. Things like Electric water pumps, Electric power steering, regenerative braking/alternator management in conjunction with start/stop technology, low rolling resistance tires, Direct fuel injection, higher efficency dual clutch (2nd gen with dry clutch assembly) transmissions to replace conventional automatics....Then you could additionally look at the vehicles themselves. Figure out ways to loose weight in vehicles, and finally incentivize new vehicle purchasers to downsize to a realistic and smaller vehicle by putting a large tax on absurd vehicles like the outrageously oversized Excursion/H2/Land Cruisers.

..all technologies that will maybe alter fuel economy 5-10% where as (say, in the example of the accord above) a diesel engine could improve fuel economy by almost 2x. but honestly, i say develop and integrate all teh technology and once this is done implement those that become financially viable in a finished product. nobody is making you buy a diesel; and you really havent brought up a good point of why it is a BAD idea to bring them to the NA market. the performance of the 330d was mentioned above and to be honest i am a much larger fan of easily accesible torque than screaming at high rpms like i would have to do with the 128. this brings another dimension to the idea of BMW performance, and i disagree with you that it is any sort of brand dilution. a lot of us here are obviously fans of the driving experience and if we can do so with a significant increase in fuel economy we would certainly do it. that doesnt mean we want yaris driving dynamics and that is why we are willing to pay for a BMW, not because we are simply too cheap to pay for gas.. consider it a sense of environmental responsibility.

WolfsburgerMitFries · 06-08-2007, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesthetect

..all technologies that will maybe alter fuel economy 5-10% where as

You need to quit trying to argue a point based on inventing these unsupported statistics because you're overwhelmingly discrediting yourself.

Don't discount the importance of new fuel delivery technologies, the BMW bi-vanos is supposed to be good for up to a 24% fuel savings alone on the 1 series.
http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Automot...ology/C9F6Q6C4

Direct fuel injection can save as much as 12% in fuel economy all by itself.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tech_...more.shtml#dfi

Alternatior management with brake energy regeneration is worth 3%.
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do...ticleId=115127

The Bosch Start stop system is good for an 8% increase by itself.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005...to_offer_.html

So don't come in here with some statistic that you've pulled out of thin air claiming that all the fuel saving technologies I listed together are good for only 5-10%, that's just plain wrong.

And 123d, don't ask me to provide any statistics about diesels ...I'm not the one with a pro diesel position. However I will go back to my very first point in this thread, which is to say that you can siphon off diesel from heavy equipment and church buses, and that is a fact that even I cannot dispute.:headbang: So there obviously is some very tangible savings potential with a diesel. Does that answer your question when I said that I'm not as anti-diesel as I may first appear?

aesthetect · 06-08-2007, 02:33 PM

you need to calm down and have a friendly discussion. start by reading your "statistics" more closely. the 24% increase is due to multiple technologies being applied (The 1-Series is receiving some of BMW's latest fuel-saving technologies; fuel consumption has been reduced by up to 24% in some models) such as bi-vanos as well as direct fuel injection, i believe this 24% figure may also include automatic start stop as well. that being said for a generalized figure describing your argument i would say 5-10% was pretty damn close (aww one study showed a potential 12% benefit of direct injection - how stupid of me!). enough to get you to argue a different point than the relatively small scale of those technologies compared to switching to compression ignition. (edit, i think you didnt realize i was talking about 5-10% from each technology individually, sorry, but still - calm down)

dont get me wrong, all in all i am not a huge fan of diesels and i am very familiar with the technologies you are describing, but for intelligent discussion's sake lets keep it honest and maybe unbiased? your little siphoning comment/joke that "justifies" you're position of not being anti-diesel is very cute. i dont understand why you are being so difficult when you apparently understand the fundamental increase in combustion efficiency gained in a diesel.

aesthetect · 06-08-2007, 02:36 PM

also, talk about brand dilution, if you applied all of those technologies in an engine trying to get those maximum efficiency gains figures youre sure as shit not going to end up with a high performance engine. wait, am i not allowed to say that without statistics? nevermind then.

123d · 06-08-2007, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

However I will go back to my very first point in this thread, which is to say that you can siphon off diesel from heavy equipment and church buses, and that is a fact that even I cannot dispute.:headbang:

Thanks for clearing that up. I was under the impression that you thought that was the only advantage.

Don't get me wrong, I would love a gas einser with with torque of a desiel and with the same fuel economy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

I can see no use for diesels. The only advantage offered by owning a diesel is the ability to siphon off fuel from some nearby heavy equipment, or maybe church buses.

backpedal, backpedal...

WolfsburgerMitFries · 06-08-2007, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aesthetect

wait, am i not allowed to say that without statistics? nevermind then.

No, in a technical discussion such as this, you're supposed to be able to support claims with facts. just like your bibliography from your high school reports, except real sources this time.

I'm not trying to me mean to anyone, that's never any fun. I apologise if anybody took me wrong. Now in re-reading my posts I see that I did get over excited in several cases. Sorry.

123d · 06-08-2007, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WolfsburgerMitFries

No, in a technical discussion such as this, you're supposed to be able to support claims with facts. just like your bibliography from your high school reports, except real sources this time.

I'm not trying to me mean to anyone. I apologise if anybody took me wrong. Now in re-reading my posts I see that I did get over excited in several cases. Sorry.

Apology accepted. I think we are all feeling a bit let down... A press release at end of May/begining of June my Ass!!

06-07-2007, 09:20 AM	#1
BForbes Moderator 559 Rep 4,240 Posts Drives: BSM 135i/AW E90 M3 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Orlando, FL iTrader: (0)	1er coupe diesel for U.S .??? I've been thinking lately that BMW needs to offer a new 1er diesel in the states from the start. I mean the brand always gives us a little surprise. I mean nobody saw twin-turbo coming right? Anyways, The 2008 Honda Accord will drop the hybrid and get to diesel. Honda promises AMAZING mpg. Check it out. "British motoring mag Autocar is reporting that the new Accord diesel we recently told you about will get really good mileage. That might seem like a no-brainer, but when we say "really good," we mean it. Like more than 60 mpg really good. Autocar says the diesel will be good for as much as 62.8 mpg when it appears in a dealership near you. That's 52.3 mpg here in the States, by the way. Honda's new clean diesel is apparently based on the current 2.2 i-CTDi, and when fitted in a Euro Accord, it achieved that staggering 62.8 mpg at a recent diesel technology convention in California. Besides the stellar fuel economy rating, these new diesels wear the "clean" tag proudly. The catalytic converter on these Honda diesels is helping it meet the strict US (especially in California) emissions standards, running as cleanly as gas engines. They do it by converting nitrogen into ammonia, which is then used to further diminish the remaining NOx gases. The new Accords should show up in September, but we're not sure if the diesel will be available from the get-go or if it will appear down the road." Lets go 1er coupe!!! __________________ - 04 Honda S2000(gone)
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06-07-2007, 09:55 AM	#2
PACIFICONE2003 Private 3 Rep 58 Posts Drives: Join Date: Mar 2007 iTrader: (0)	I believe you are correct that BMW needs to bring a Diesel 1er to the US. Their official position in Nicht! With the "clean" diesel engines available now by VW and DaimlerChrysler via Bluetec, you will see a surge in German diesels (VW and Daimler) hitting the US shore over the next couple of years. Their sales approach will be pushing German engineering with 30-40% better fuel mileage, and proved technology (vs. Hybrids). BlueTec is a special, patented exhaust gas treatment system that has two variants. The first is used in the E 320 BlueTec and combines an oxidizing catalytic converter and particulate filter with an additional catalytic converter, while in the other version a nontoxic solution known as AdBlue is injected into the exhaust gas flow. This releases ammonia, which breaks down as much as 80 percent of the nitrogen oxide into harmless nitrogen and water. Which vehicle gets what version depends on vehicle concept and weight, as well as the required reduction of nitrogen-oxide emissions. AdBlue will be stored in a special 6-gallon tank that has to be refilled at the service intervals. The consumption of AdBlue amounts to approximately 1 percent of the burnt fuel. In 2008, Mercedes-Benz plans to introduce three additional BlueTec models with AdBlue injection that comply to the Bin 5 norm in all 50 states (the R-, M- and GL-Class). In Honda's treatment system, exhaust flows through a plasma reactor, or gaseous layer of electrically charged atoms, according to a copy of the U.S. patent obtained by Bloomberg News. That separates out harmful nitrogen oxides and forms nitrogen dioxide that is then reduced or absorbed by alkali metals and silver. (ie, no additional tanks to fill!)
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06-07-2007, 11:46 AM	#3
WolfsburgerMitFries Lieutenant 12 Rep 445 Posts Drives: BMW 3er Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lexington, KY iTrader: (0)	I can see no use for diesels. The only advantage offered by owning a diesel is the ability to siphon off fuel from some nearby heavy equipment, or maybe church buses.
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06-07-2007, 11:58 AM	#5
PACIFICONE2003 Private 3 Rep 58 Posts Drives: Join Date: Mar 2007 iTrader: (0)	With diesel fuel 21% less expensive then premium, 30-40% better fuel economy, more torque.....I would need to disagree.
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06-07-2007, 02:50 PM	#9
PACIFICONE2003 Private 3 Rep 58 Posts Drives: Join Date: Mar 2007 iTrader: (0)	Quote from Auto Channel: "While the BMW Group has been offering Diesel vehicles in Europe since 1983 and 67% of the BMW sales there are Diesel models today, the acceptance of this type of engine has been increasing among potential vehicle customers in the US market". How can 67% of Europeans be wrong?
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06-07-2007, 10:58 PM	#10
amdmaxx My gift Registry: M2 119 Rep 1,432 Posts Drives: Future Mowner of Monster Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	Wolf = OWNED by Pacific.. Also, every 4th station in US serves diesel.. Diesel is now clean in US and I also drive VW TDI Golf and it got my from New York to Miami on 2 tanks of gas (1309 miles).. Read 330d review from 4car.. Plenty of performance... Read Audi A8 TDi review or R10 winning diesel car.. Also, read recent news regarding Honda Accord abandoning hybrid and releasing next gen accord with 55mpg diesel engine... Diesel is the future withtoday's gas prices, whether u like it or not.. 135 for track/enthusiasts and 1xx diesel for the rest of us..
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06-08-2007, 07:45 AM	#12
PACIFICONE2003 Private 3 Rep 58 Posts Drives: Join Date: Mar 2007 iTrader: (0)	Yes, I do understand that Europeans get heavily taxed on their petrol and $400 isn’t a lot of money (using 12,000 a year, I actually drive closer to 25,000). But, there is a bigger picture that is being overlooked. We have a limited resource that needs to be conserved. Why in the US do we have 2 cars (non-hybrid) that are getting better than 40 MPG (one of which my wife drives) and Europeans have 118 available (at last count). Further, I am getting tired of the wack jobs in the Middle East getting rich off of our money to turn around investing in terrorist groups and “peaceful….”my ass”, nuclear programs. I do understand that we don’t buy most of our fuel directly from these “unfriendly” markets but, it does affect world prices. However, I want driving dynamics that is offered by BMW. You my kick and scream about diesels, but, in a recent pole, 76% of Americans want better fuel economy for similiar reasons. Diesels and Hybrids will start becoming the norm.
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06-08-2007, 09:32 AM	#13
WolfsburgerMitFries Lieutenant 12 Rep 445 Posts Drives: BMW 3er Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Lexington, KY iTrader: (0)	Those are all excellent points Pacificone2003, and I'm not as anti-diesel as I might first appear. I also do have to wonder about some of your undoccumented statistics. I'll bet if I hired a professional polling firm and asked Americans "do you want cars that deliver better fuel economy?" I could come up with a figure quite a bit higher than 76%. The point is, there's a pile of things that can be done to increase fuel economy in any car. Things like Electric water pumps, Electric power steering, regenerative braking/alternator management in conjunction with start/stop technology, low rolling resistance tires, Direct fuel injection, higher efficency dual clutch (2nd gen with dry clutch assembly) transmissions to replace conventional automatics....Then you could additionally look at the vehicles themselves. Figure out ways to loose weight in vehicles, and finally incentivize new vehicle purchasers to downsize to a realistic and smaller vehicle by putting a large tax on absurd vehicles like the outrageously oversized Excursion/H2/Land Cruisers. But you see, with the 1 series, We're already starting out with one of the smallest 4 seat cars the road, and its comparitively lightweight by todays standards. Forget about 2200 pound vehicles from the 1980's, crash protection standards have done away with that, but 3000ish pounds shouldn't be that hard to achieve. The 1 series has reasonably small engines to begin with, and its going to offer good economy right out of the box even with the inline 6s. My whole point is, some people approach diesels as if they were some holy grail, or the only way to good fuel economy, but they're not. If you want to make noises about getting more fuel efficient cars, go re-read all the points I made in the 2nd paragraph and push for the implementation of those technologies.
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06-08-2007, 10:27 AM	#15
PACIFICONE2003 Private 3 Rep 58 Posts Drives: Join Date: Mar 2007 iTrader: (0)	Agree. Diesel is only a part of the solution!
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06-08-2007, 02:33 PM	#18
aesthetect form follows function 38 Rep 838 Posts Drives: GC impreza Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: austin tx iTrader: (0)	you need to calm down and have a friendly discussion. start by reading your "statistics" more closely. the 24% increase is due to multiple technologies being applied (The 1-Series is receiving some of BMW's latest fuel-saving technologies; fuel consumption has been reduced by up to 24% in some models) such as bi-vanos as well as direct fuel injection, i believe this 24% figure may also include automatic start stop as well. that being said for a generalized figure describing your argument i would say 5-10% was pretty damn close (aww one study showed a potential 12% benefit of direct injection - how stupid of me!). enough to get you to argue a different point than the relatively small scale of those technologies compared to switching to compression ignition. (edit, i think you didnt realize i was talking about 5-10% from each technology individually, sorry, but still - calm down) dont get me wrong, all in all i am not a huge fan of diesels and i am very familiar with the technologies you are describing, but for intelligent discussion's sake lets keep it honest and maybe unbiased? your little siphoning comment/joke that "justifies" you're position of not being anti-diesel is very cute. i dont understand why you are being so difficult when you apparently understand the fundamental increase in combustion efficiency gained in a diesel.
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06-08-2007, 02:36 PM	#19
aesthetect form follows function 38 Rep 838 Posts Drives: GC impreza Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: austin tx iTrader: (0)	also, talk about brand dilution, if you applied all of those technologies in an engine trying to get those maximum efficiency gains figures youre sure as shit not going to end up with a high performance engine. wait, am i not allowed to say that without statistics? nevermind then.
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