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      03-20-2008, 12:00 PM   #1
BoostFrenzy
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135i/335i engine specific information?

How much "power" can it handle? Pistons forged or cast? Aftermarket turbos in the works?

Haven't seen much technicial information on the motor, I plan to make a bit more than the ~400bhp a flash will produce
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      03-20-2008, 12:58 PM   #2
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Originally Posted by BoostFrenzy View Post
How much "power" can it handle? Pistons forged or cast? Aftermarket turbos in the works?

Haven't seen much technicial information on the motor, I plan to make a bit more than the ~400bhp a flash will produce
I haven't heard of anyone on e90post popping a motor yet, so the power limits are yet to be established. I'm thinking that some people are having a hard enough time working out the bugs with bolt-ons, so an upgraded turbo might be a little further into the future when all of the ECU options come out. What the 135/335/535 cars need is a tune-able ecu (not an off-the-shelf tune). These generic tunes aren't safe for EVERY vehicle; all vehicles are different.

Right now you can get about 400whp (480bhp) by doing procede v2, catless downpipe, catback, intake, and intercooler; and i believe this is on 100 oct. Who knows what will be available as far as single turbo conversions go in the future, but i would imagine 450-500whp being the limit for the stock bottom end - btw THAT IS PURELY SPECULATION on my part.

-Chris
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      03-20-2008, 01:10 PM   #3
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380-400whp is possible on streetgas with the upcoming Procede 2.1, or Helix with IC, Catless DPs. Intake and catback might help a little, but not too much power to get now.

With 100 oct people have seen over 400whp.

However, the snails (turbos) are ACTUALLY the size of a large snail in this case, so they're really running out of steam. With stock turbos, you're much more likely to blow them up than the engine.

The stock fueling isn't good for much past 400-420whp, so it'll be a while before anyone breaks that. Direct Injection is very new, and it'll take some time to develop higher flow HPFP, fuel rail, injectors, etc.

No one really knows how much the internals can hold up to.
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      03-20-2008, 01:19 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82TT6 View Post
380-400whp is possible on streetgas with the upcoming Procede 2.1, or Helix with IC, Catless DPs. Intake and catback might help a little, but not too much power to get now.

With 100 oct people have seen over 400whp.

However, the snails (turbos) are ACTUALLY the size of a large snail in this case, so they're really running out of steam. With stock turbos, you're much more likely to blow them up than the engine.

The stock fueling isn't good for much past 400-420whp, so it'll be a while before anyone breaks that. Direct Injection is very new, and it'll take some time to develop higher flow HPFP, fuel rail, injectors, etc.

No one really knows how much the internals can hold up to.
a true cai (not a sri) will make about a 10whp difference, i've seen multiple dyno charts of multiple intakes. and if you're at 400whp with the stock catback, removing the secondary cats and replacing the muffler will def. make more power. The stock muffler/cats will always become a restriction when you're making 130+whp more than stock.

-Chris
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      03-20-2008, 03:15 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boosted View Post
Right now you can get about 400whp (480bhp) by doing procede v2, catless downpipe, catback, intake, and intercooler;
You sure? 480bhp at the crank? Aren't most people seeing increases of around 60bhp with the map alone? So that gets us to about 360/370bhp.... where does the extra 100+ bhp come from - not from removing the cats in the downpipe and a bit of extra breathing....
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      03-20-2008, 03:33 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by clived View Post
You sure? 480bhp at the crank? Aren't most people seeing increases of around 60bhp with the map alone? So that gets us to about 360/370bhp.... where does the extra 100+ bhp come from - not from removing the cats in the downpipe and a bit of extra breathing....
People are making more like 400bhp with the V2 + catback, thats around 330whp with a 17% drivetrain loss. UR's catless downpipes add 28whp, cai's add around 10whp, intercooler adds 10whp, and lets say 5whp from ditching the 2ndary cats. So thats 383whp (460bhp) with a 17% loss. In addition, I said it would be achieved on 100 oct. Using the 100 oct. in addition to this setup will allow you to run more boost and mess with timing more thus increasing power. This would bring you to 400+whp give or take some depending on what dynos you are using.

Its going to be very exciting around here when turbo kits come out.

-Chris
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      03-20-2008, 04:10 PM   #7
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dummy question!!!
i drove a 06 wrx with 300 whp and my 5 speed tranny was about to blow!
so my question is if you have like 380 - 400 whp on a 135i are you in risk of blowing that sweet 6 speed to pieces?
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      03-20-2008, 04:24 PM   #8
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I think the numbers y'all figuring are a little low:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1226

+78whp/340whp on a Mustang Dyno from Helix alone.

Here's a helix dyno with DPs and FMIC:

http://img2.putfile.com/main/3/6015523886.jpg

+106hp/ 387 whp with stock intake and exhaust, on 93 octane.

I'd imagine that setup could hit 400whp with a DP-back exhaust that deleted second cats, and a higher flowing intake system.

Generally speaking, on these cars, race gas is good for another 20-30 whp. The engine will use it's own logic to add timing up top with the addition of race gas.

PS: No reports of tranny exploding.
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      03-20-2008, 05:00 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E82TT6 View Post
I think the numbers y'all figuring are a little low:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showpo...postcount=1226

+78whp/340whp on a Mustang Dyno from Helix alone.

Here's a helix dyno with DPs and FMIC:

http://img2.putfile.com/main/3/6015523886.jpg

+106hp/ 387 whp with stock intake and exhaust, on 93 octane.

I'd imagine that setup could hit 400whp with a DP-back exhaust that deleted second cats, and a higher flowing intake system.

Generally speaking, on these cars, race gas is good for another 20-30 whp. The engine will use it's own logic to add timing up top with the addition of race gas.

PS: No reports of tranny exploding.
hey i just noticed that you're switching from an S2000, so am i. :biggrin:

i like to be conservative when i give people estimates on what power they can expect. that way if its more, they're not disappointed. :wink:

-Chris
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      03-20-2008, 05:42 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boosted View Post
hey i just noticed that you're switching from an S2000, so am i. :biggrin:

i like to be conservative when i give people estimates on what power they can expect. that way if its more, they're not disappointed. :wink:

-Chris
Yep! Need a bit more space.

No harm in conservative!
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      03-20-2008, 05:53 PM   #11
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I switched from an s2000 as well.
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      03-20-2008, 06:27 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by eunosracr View Post
I switched from an s2000 as well.
yeh i'll have owned my S for four years next month and i decided i wanted something with a backseat (just for some stuff, i don't intend on carrying any passengers) and something turbo.

-Chris
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      03-20-2008, 06:47 PM   #13
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I switched from an S2000 to CLK500/E350 to Ridgeline/135i

I miss my S2000 though. I am hoping the 135i gives me the same connection with the road.
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      03-20-2008, 07:44 PM   #14
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And here I always wanted a S2000 or an older MZ3 vert for summer driving.
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      03-20-2008, 08:09 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Tuned1 View Post
And here I always wanted a S2000 or an older MZ3 vert for summer driving.
don't get me wrong, its a fantastic car but like any car, after four years its time to move on for me.

-Chris
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      03-20-2008, 08:16 PM   #16
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I'd still like to have one as a weekend car at some point, but as a DD, it got a little too small.
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      03-20-2008, 08:23 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boosted View Post
People are making more like 400bhp with the V2 + catback, thats around 330whp with a 17% drivetrain loss. UR's catless downpipes add 28whp, cai's add around 10whp, intercooler adds 10whp, and lets say 5whp from ditching the 2ndary cats. So thats 383whp (460bhp) with a 17% loss. In addition, I said it would be achieved on 100 oct. Using the 100 oct. in addition to this setup will allow you to run more boost and mess with timing more thus increasing power. This would bring you to 400+whp give or take some depending on what dynos you are using.

Its going to be very exciting around here when turbo kits come out.

-Chris

I have the AA processor. It is a conservative tune. I can only imagine trying to actually put down all the power generated by a more agressive tune to the ground. Good luck with that. With our stock tires we will soon need at least 265s in the back to hook up with 400whp in my opinion.
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      03-20-2008, 08:45 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoostFrenzy View Post
How much "power" can it handle? Pistons forged or cast? Aftermarket turbos in the works?

Haven't seen much technicial information on the motor, I plan to make a bit more than the ~400bhp a flash will produce

Hello,

There is plenty of technical information available. The N54 is not new and the engine management functions are also elaborated in many of the BMW official docs.

The engine in stock form is capable of 420hp/450ft-lb of torque before some people started questioning the internals. So de-stressing this engine, then increasing it's power should result in a reliable upgraded engine.
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      03-20-2008, 09:00 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boosted View Post
People are making more like 400bhp with the V2 + catback, thats around 330whp with a 17% drivetrain loss. UR's catless downpipes add 28whp, cai's add around 10whp, intercooler adds 10whp, and lets say 5whp from ditching the 2ndary cats. So thats 383whp (460bhp) with a 17% loss. In addition, I said it would be achieved on 100 oct. Using the 100 oct. in addition to this setup will allow you to run more boost and mess with timing more thus increasing power. This would bring you to 400+whp give or take some depending on what dynos you are using.

Its going to be very exciting around here when turbo kits come out.

-Chris
What's the maximum flow rate of the turbos, and the max fueling on the standard system? Can they both really deliver 50% above standard? I guess what I really mean is has anyone really seen 460bhp? Once you start maxing out these variables, it doesn't matter how much timing you can add with 100 octane fuel... And "what dynos you are using" doesn't change the power the car is making, it just changes how over the top the result is ;-) However, whilst I might not agree with the additive nature of your maths, it certainly is clear that there is a lot of potential :w00t:
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      03-20-2008, 09:18 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boosted View Post
People are making more like 400bhp with the V2 + catback, thats around 330whp with a 17% drivetrain loss. UR's catless downpipes add 28whp, cai's add around 10whp, intercooler adds 10whp, and lets say 5whp from ditching the 2ndary cats. So thats 383whp (460bhp) with a 17% loss. In addition, I said it would be achieved on 100 oct. Using the 100 oct. in addition to this setup will allow you to run more boost and mess with timing more thus increasing power. This would bring you to 400+whp give or take some depending on what dynos you are using.

Its going to be very exciting around here when turbo kits come out.

-Chris
Chris, the drivertrain loss is not static and nowhere near the 17% you've quoted. Driverlines have been improved over the last 10 years and the loss is now around 11% ~ 13%. Coincidentally, Dinan found the exact % of loss over the revband and has published this.

But comparing dynos is hard to do, on top of that many people still refuse to use SEA corrections. But it is safe to say with 360whp using SEA correction is very close to 400bhp.
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      03-21-2008, 12:02 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clived View Post
What's the maximum flow rate of the turbos, and the max fueling on the standard system? Can they both really deliver 50% above standard? I guess what I really mean is has anyone really seen 460bhp? Once you start maxing out these variables, it doesn't matter how much timing you can add with 100 octane fuel... And "what dynos you are using" doesn't change the power the car is making, it just changes how over the top the result is ;-) However, whilst I might not agree with the additive nature of your maths, it certainly is clear that there is a lot of potential :w00t:
The max flow for the stock turbos and fuel is unknown as of now, to my knowledge. Thats why I stated that my post was an opinion. Here is an example of a 380whp (465bhp) 335i:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126918

here's the setup:

2007 335 6MT
~30k miles
PROcede v2.1 beta (with built-in o2 simulators)
Riss catless dp
Vishnu cat-back
Dual cone filter intake
Stock bypass valves, stock intercooler, etc,.

its not a question of you believing my math, its a question of you believing the facts.

-Chris
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      03-21-2008, 06:30 AM   #22
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Chirs, I guess I'm just on the sceptical / disbelieving end of a journey - maybe I don't want to beleive such power figures are so easily attainable so I don't find myself dissapointed in the near future!

I see you're using 20% as the transmission loss figure in most of your calcs. Browsing round the forum you posted a link to I've seen figures from 13% to 17% used in their calcs. Does the 135i have higher losses than the 335i? In your example above you say 380whp translates into 465bhp at the crank - would that not be nearly 23% transmission loss?

I think what my uncertainty boils down to is lack of clarity regarding the losses - I see lots of estimation, not absolute hard facts, but given no-one is ever going to bench test their engine in the real world, I accept it's the best we have Be great to see an agreed loss figure being used though, as there is a big gap betwwen 17% and 23%, especially as power figures rise...

Cheers, Clive
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