Should I get new tires now or later?

[ktdw]

I have this HPDE scheduled in a couple of weeks, and my OEM RF have about 10K on them. I imagine I can put several thousand more miles on them, and would otherwise change them early next year.

The question is should I get some new rubber before the event?

[jlee]

I'm going to go ahead and get a second set of wheels/tires for track events. I ran the runflats for the first time last week and hated them. Between the understeer generated by the size of the front wheels and the tires..I'm now ready to buy a second set

[one-35]

I just bought some 225/40 Fr and 255/40 Rear OEM RFT tires off a 335i for only $300!!! They have 8-9/32" tread (almost new), so I switched out my 135i OEM tires (which I want to save for daily driving) since they'll probably get eaten up/melted at Streets of Willows next Friday.

I know it's MUCH better to have dedicated track tires, especially R-compound or Falken Azenis... but buying a dedicated set of race wheels that will only be used a few days each year isn't worth it for me.

Another benefit of using the same OEM street tires on the track is you'll know EXACTLY how your car will handle during daily driving conditions or canyon runs. But if you want GRIP on the track, Falken Azenis or R-Compound is the way to go!

[pkcormier]

Depends on how much track driving you plan to do and what your goals are. If you attend more than 4 or 5 track events per year, and you want a fast and confident machine, go with a dedicated set of wheels and tires. Hands down, R compound or race tires on light weight wheels are your best bang for your buck with respect to lap times. Assuming your brakes are up to the task. And many R compound tires are more affordable than the stock run flats.

If you plan to attend a couple of events, just be prepared to buy tires much sooner than normal. Even with the stock tires on your 135i, you'll get around the track faster than most.

I attend quite a few events a year and have invested in a set of 18x8.5 breyton race wheels and 245x35 Kumho v700 R compound tires. Having an identical set f & r allows me to rotate the tires to optimize wear. I can even flip these tires on the wheels if the outside shoulders are wearing faster than the center tread. And having more rubber and a wider track up front reduces understeer.

I see you have quite a few power upgrades. Frankly you should be more concerned about your brakes than your tires. Depending on the track you're going to, you could overwork the stock pads and fluid before you overwork the tires. Safety first. Good luck.

[pkcormier]

Back to your original question ktdw. Shorter tread will give you more traction. I would use your current tires for the event and get new tires when you need them. Most HPDE's require 2-3/32 of tread, which essentially is when the tread wear indicators are showing. Brand new tires with 10/32 of tread and a track event don't mix. If you push your car hard you run the risk of overheating the tires and chunking off big pieces of tread. You could ruin a new set of tires in one day. That's why you see race tires in 6/32 of tread, and even then the manufacturer often recommends shaving them to 3-4/32. Short tread squirms less, generates less heat, and can actually last longer than taller treaded tires.

[one-35]

Great info./advice... thanks!!!

Originally Posted by pkcormier

Depends on how much track driving you plan to do and what your goals are. If you attend more than 4 or 5 track events per year, and you want a fast and confident machine, go with a dedicated set of wheels and tires. Hands down, R compound or race tires on light weight wheels are your best bang for your buck with respect to lap times. Assuming your brakes are up to the task. And many R compound tires are more affordable than the stock run flats.

If you plan to attend a couple of events, just be prepared to buy tires much sooner than normal. Even with the stock tires on your 135i, you'll get around the track faster than most.

I attend quite a few events a year and have invested in a set of 18x8.5 breyton race wheels and 245x35 Kumho v700 R compound tires. Having an identical set f & r allows me to rotate the tires to optimize wear. I can even flip these tires on the wheels if the outside shoulders are wearing faster than the center tread. And having more rubber and a wider track up front reduces understeer.

I see you have quite a few power upgrades. Frankly you should be more concerned about your brakes than your tires. Depending on the track you're going to, you could overwork the stock pads and fluid before you overwork the tires. Safety first. Good luck.

[one-35]

Originally Posted by pkcormier

Back to your original question ktdw. Shorter tread will give you more traction. I would use your current tires for the event and get new tires when you need them. Most HPDE's require 2-3/32 of tread, which essentially is when the tread wear indicators are showing. Brand new tires with 10/32 of tread and a track event don't mix. If you push your car hard you run the risk of overheating the tires and chunking off big pieces of tread. You could ruin a new set of tires in one day. That's why you see race tires in 6/32 of tread, and even then the manufacturer often recommends shaving them to 3-4/32. Short tread squirms less, generates less heat, and can actually last longer than taller treaded tires.

The tires I bought (7-9/32") for next Friday's event actually have LESS tread than my stock OEMs (only 2,200 miles and 10/32" on all 4 tires)... that's why I switched them out. Also, going to 225 front and 255 rear for only $300 (all 4 tires) was worth it for the 2-4 days of track events I plan on each year.

True... I would have preferred less tread for the track, but these will give me longer overall life since I'll use them on the road, too.

Car is only 4 months old with 2,400 miles. Do you think I'll be okay with the stock brake pads and fluid (Streets of Willow)? I ordered some ATE Super Blue Racing DOT 4 brake fluid but might not get it in time.

Doesn't BMW warranty the pads and rotors?

[pkcormier]

You should be fine using those tires. That's a good $ for rubber ratio. As for your brakes, I have not driven the Streets of Willow, but I hear it is relatively hard on brakes, both the short and the big track. Then again, most race tracks are hard on brakes. And the 135i is a fast, heavy car. And with wider tires, you will increase braking friction and increase the stress on the brakes. If you are pushing your car hard, you will probably experience some fade as the stock pads overheat. You can also boil your fluid which will cause fade. Do what you can to get a good race fluid in your system at least. My first track event in my 135i was on stock pads and stock fluid and I had to end my run sessions early. I also toasted the pads. I am currently running motul brake fluid and Hawk HT-10 race pads. I swap them back to stock pads after the event. I need race pads because I am 1) hard on brakes, 2) have 245 R compound tires which significantly increase braking friction, 3) don't want to worry about my brakes. If you find you are working your brakes too hard, back off a bit and spend more time perfecting your line and increasing your exit speeds. The 135i has good power which you can use to your advantage. Exit speed is everything - slow in, fast out.

BMW does warranty pads and rotors. But a good tech can tell the difference between pads worn on the street and pads cooked from a track event. Then it is a matter of how aggressive the dealer wants to be. I didn't even bother to ask the dealer to replace my first set of pads because it was obvious they were abused and let's face it, I know why. Stock pads weren't made for the track. But the rotors should hold up fine.

The way I approach this sport is - basic wear and tear items are my responsibility. But I expect BMW to stand behind the general systems of the car, such as the engine, suspension, brakes (other than pads and possibly rotors), transmission, electronics, etc. They advertise this car as a high performance vehicle. It should be able to handle the track. Provided of course, you have not significantly modified the car. Good luck on Friday.

[pkcormier]

One-35, I think I may have confused the issue with my first two posts. I was responding to ktdw's orginal question, not your first post. My last post was, however, a response to your last post. Clear as mud?

[one-35]

Originally Posted by pkcormier

One-35, I think I may have confused the issue with my first two posts. I was responding to ktdw's orginal question, not your first post. My last post was, however, a response to your last post. Clear as mud?

I feel like "a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn't there."
(quote from Heime Escalante in "Stand and Deliver")

[Crystal clear; I just wanted to use that quote.]

[pkcormier]

touche

[ktdw]

Thanks.

This is my first HPDE, and is really a driving school at Infineon. I say that because, although the tires and brakes will be pushed much harder than normal, it shouldn't be as hard a full blown race event. Also, I'm not sure how many events I will see. Perhaps a couple a year? And because I lack a garage, it generally makes sense to keep my purchases track/street compatable.

With that said, my concern was that the OEM brakes and tires wouldn't be up to the task. I'm not trying to be the fastest there, but I don't want to hindered by brake fade, insufficent rubber, etc.

I ordered Dunlop Star Specs, but as you said, having new tires may not be a good idea. I was told yesterday that my rear tires are "ok, unless you're going to be tracking it." I'm not sure what to do! It's a two-day event, so I guess I can keep the run-flats on the first day and see how it goes. Does that seem reasonable?

As far as the brakes go, I will get the fluid flushed and use ATE super blue. In regards to the pads, I was told they are fine. I would like to get better pads, but it seems that nobody is happy with the alternatives out there. I guess I can get dedicated track pads, but....and I'm embarassed to say this...how hard is it to swith these out?

Thanks again!

Originally Posted by pkcormier

Depends on how much track driving you plan to do and what your goals are. If you attend more than 4 or 5 track events per year, and you want a fast and confident machine, go with a dedicated set of wheels and tires. Hands down, R compound or race tires on light weight wheels are your best bang for your buck with respect to lap times. Assuming your brakes are up to the task. And many R compound tires are more affordable than the stock run flats.

If you plan to attend a couple of events, just be prepared to buy tires much sooner than normal. Even with the stock tires on your 135i, you'll get around the track faster than most.

I attend quite a few events a year and have invested in a set of 18x8.5 breyton race wheels and 245x35 Kumho v700 R compound tires. Having an identical set f & r allows me to rotate the tires to optimize wear. I can even flip these tires on the wheels if the outside shoulders are wearing faster than the center tread. And having more rubber and a wider track up front reduces understeer.

I see you have quite a few power upgrades. Frankly you should be more concerned about your brakes than your tires. Depending on the track you're going to, you could overwork the stock pads and fluid before you overwork the tires. Safety first. Good luck.

[pkcormier]

If you have 2/32 or more tread left on your tires, they will be fine for your first track event or any event. I would not change tires. As you said, you can always mount the Star Specs if the run flats aren't working for you. Infineon will likely have tire service on site.

And since this is your first track experience you probably will be fine with a stock setup all around. Unless you are a prodigy, you just won't push your car hard enough. My first event was in my 2000 Audi S4. It was bone stock. I was the fastest in my group, and still the car had no problems. It wasn't until I got more experienced (ie faster) that some of the stock systems weren't up to the task. And your first day will be slow and deliberate. You need to build the basic, and your confidence, before you build speed.

I would put the ATE fluid in and that's it. Again, you probably will be OK with stock pads. And yes, there isn't much in the way of track pad options right now. As for changing pads, you just need some simple tools and an average mechanical aptitude. So if you get hooked, like you probably will, you can worry about that later. While you're at the event, talk to the other BMW drivers about what pads they like, tires, etc. Especially if there are other 135i drivers. But I've been to 4 events since July and I'm the only 1.

I drove on street tires for about my first 12 events. Only when my instructor told me I was ready for race tires, did I bother to use them. I think I am a better driver because I had patience building a good base. When you don't have the most capable car on the track, you must be better at the "driving" part to go fast. Then get a faster car (or better components like race tires) and apply what you've learned.

Let me know how it goes. One other thing you might consider. Get camera mount for your car and take in-car video with a video camera. Likely your instructor will take you for a couple laps behind the wheel of your car first, to show you the line. Film this and you can replay the video between run sessions. Memorize the track. You should be able to close your eyes and visualize every turn, braking zone, etc. The sooner you "know" the track, the sooner you'll make real progress. I've seen guys spend all weekend driving a different line for every turn because they couldn't remember which turn was next. It's like driving down a street for the first time, at twice the speed limit. Good luck.