Hawk HT-10s on turner motorsport?

[snkeyez95]

Has anyone tried them? Are they specifically made for the 135i, or modified like others? I have been reading so much about aftermarket pads damaging the pistons in the caliper and was curious if Hawk has solved the problem.

[white911]

I use Hawk HT10s on the 911. My current favorite. Seem to be pretty good to the rotors despite their realtively high torque and have good release characteristics. They are a pure track pad and will operate at 1100F. They operate ok on the out lap, this means don't use them to drive to the track. The dust does not seem to be as persistent as the PFC 97, 01. I will never use/try Pagid again.

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by white911

I use Hawk HT10s on the 911. My current favorite. Seem to be pretty good to the rotors despite their realtively high torque and have good release characteristics. They are a pure track pad and will operate at 1100F. They operate ok on the out lap, this means don't use them to drive to the track. The dust does not seem to be as persistent as the PFC 97, 01. I will never use/try Pagid again.

ironically, i had almost the exact opposite impression of the HT-10 (in an e46 m3 application). i found them to be fine for the drive to/from the track due to a pretty good cold bite. i tought the torque was kinda lame compared with PFC 97 and 01, and had worse dusting with the ht-10 than the PFC 97/01. the PFC's dusted more, but it was easier to clean.

i can't comment on whether they're made for the 135i or just modified to fit. either way i'll be waiting 'til some lower price options become available... there's no good reason they should be so expensive.

[white911]

Originally Posted by fourtailpipes

ironically, i had almost the exact opposite impression of the HT-10 (in an e46 m3 application). i found them to be fine for the drive to/from the track due to a pretty good cold bite. i tought the torque was kinda lame compared with PFC 97 and 01, and had worse dusting with the ht-10 than the PFC 97/01. the PFC's dusted more, but it was easier to clean.

i can't comment on whether they're made for the 135i or just modified to fit. either way i'll be waiting 'til some lower price options become available... there's no good reason they should be so expensive.

I can't say that I disagree entirely, to me the pads are very close together in performance, with the performance edge going to the HT10. I would probably give the nod to the 97 for someone who was determined to drive to the track. Neither are good for that application.

In the cold to and from the track the HT10s are more linear and will have less tendency to grab and flat spot the tires in extremis. The cleaning part may have to do with biases based on finish of the wheel. I used either forged and annodized Fuchs or Fikse unfinished rims.

From the respective sites (the PF folks have a lot more to say about their pads) -

HT-10 -- Intermediate to high torque with a smooth initial bite. Very consistent pedal feel. Excellent modulation and release characteristics. Sports car racing applications needing medium / high initial bite and effectiveness. * Recommended for use with HT 14 when split friction between front and rear axle is desired.

PF-97 -- This compound was designed as an all-purpose pad where excellent controllability was a priority over ultimate stopping power. Due to its excellent modulation characteristics, this pad has proved very popular with race schools, rallying, and as a rear pad for applications such as touring cars. 97 has the lowest wear of all compounds, typically providing two to three times more life expectancy than competitors. This compound can also dramatically extend disc life.

Medium torque race compound and as a result can provide reduced brake temperatures in situations where poor cooling can result in premature disc failure. 97 has the flattest torque curve of all the Performance Friction compounds. Effective from 167°F and reach 2000°F (75°C, reach 1100°C), 97 uses Performance Friction’s unique lubrication package that maintains a minimal transfer layer on the disc to help prevent brake judder and provide excellent release properties, therefore reducing overall drag in the brake system. 97 is extremely easy on the discs with very low wear.

97 is now being used in Bondurant, Derek Daley, Dale Jarrett Driving Adventure, Panoz, Mid Ohio, and Jim Russell racing schools because of it's long wear vs. performance vs. control and modulation.

[J Tyler]

Originally Posted by snkeyez95

Has anyone tried them? Are they specifically made for the 135i, or modified like others? I have been reading so much about aftermarket pads damaging the pistons in the caliper and was curious if Hawk has solved the problem.

We run HT-10's on the Berk 135i and so far have had no problems (after several track days with me driving).

The pad material itself is good, but too aggressive for a Street pad (it will tear up rotors when used cold, i.e. street driving). But, one thing: due to who knows what (insufficient aero cooling, bad heat transfer characteristics of the pad backing plate, etc), I boil the Motul RBF after ~1 hot lap at 10/10ths in the 135i. It could be the pads going, but I have a good hunch it's the fluid boiling.

[adc]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

The pad material itself is good, but too aggressive for a Street pad (it will tear up rotors when used cold, i.e. street driving).

+1.

I drove on HT-10 to Watkins Glen (from MD) and my rotors did not like that one bit. It also picked some debris that only came out with the screwdriver, not sure why.

I bedded them in when I left home, but I guess over the many miles or street use they completely cleaned the rotors, so at the track I had some pad deposits with severe braking judder. Thank God it rained.


The best track pad that's also rotor friendly - so far - was Cobalt Spec VR - but I don't think they make it in 135i sizes. These were also excellent on track and I had no problem driving to the track on them.

[WAY]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

We run HT-10's on the Berk 135i and so far have had no problems (after several track days with me driving).

The pad material itself is good, but too aggressive for a Street pad (it will tear up rotors when used cold, i.e. street driving). But, one thing: due to who knows what (insufficient aero cooling, bad heat transfer characteristics of the pad backing plate, etc), I boil the Motul RBF after ~1 hot lap at 10/10ths in the 135i. It could be the pads going, but I have a good hunch it's the fluid boiling.

Jeff, are you guys using the old RBF600 or the new RBF660? I hear the boiling point is much higher on the 660 but I have not used it myself. May be worth a try?

[J Tyler]

Originally Posted by WAY

Jeff, are you guys using the old RBF600 or the new RBF660? I hear the boiling point is much higher on the 660 but I have not used it myself. May be worth a try?

Cool, thanks for the tip. I'll make sure to use the 660!

[fourtailpipes]

Originally Posted by white911

I can't say that I disagree entirely, to me the pads are very close together in performance, with the performance edge going to the HT10. I would probably give the nod to the 97 for someone who was determined to drive to the track. Neither are good for that application.

In the cold to and from the track the HT10s are more linear and will have less tendency to grab and flat spot the tires in extremis. The cleaning part may have to do with biases based on finish of the wheel. I used either forged and annodized Fuchs or Fikse unfinished rims.

From the respective sites (the PF folks have a lot more to say about their pads) -

HT-10 -- Intermediate to high torque with a smooth initial bite. Very consistent pedal feel. Excellent modulation and release characteristics. Sports car racing applications needing medium / high initial bite and effectiveness. * Recommended for use with HT 14 when split friction between front and rear axle is desired.

PF-97 -- This compound was designed as an all-purpose pad where excellent controllability was a priority over ultimate stopping power. Due to its excellent modulation characteristics, this pad has proved very popular with race schools, rallying, and as a rear pad for applications such as touring cars. 97 has the lowest wear of all compounds, typically providing two to three times more life expectancy than competitors. This compound can also dramatically extend disc life.

Medium torque race compound and as a result can provide reduced brake temperatures in situations where poor cooling can result in premature disc failure. 97 has the flattest torque curve of all the Performance Friction compounds. Effective from 167°F and reach 2000°F (75°C, reach 1100°C), 97 uses Performance Friction’s unique lubrication package that maintains a minimal transfer layer on the disc to help prevent brake judder and provide excellent release properties, therefore reducing overall drag in the brake system. 97 is extremely easy on the discs with very low wear.

97 is now being used in Bondurant, Derek Daley, Dale Jarrett Driving Adventure, Panoz, Mid Ohio, and Jim Russell racing schools because of it's long wear vs. performance vs. control and modulation.

i should have clarified that i was using PFC01 in front and PFC97 in back. this is the combination that produced the increased brake torque compared with HT-10 f&r. i also tried HT-14 in front with HT-10 in back, but the 14's were just plain awful. i didn't notice any performance increase with the 14 versus the 10, except an increase in noise and dust.

[SumAznGuy]

Originally Posted by J Tyler

Cool, thanks for the tip. I'll make sure to use the 660!

If memory serves me correct, the RBF600 boiling point is 500 degree F while the RBF660 has a 600 degree F boiling point.

[bradford]

I've used HT10s for about five years now in various cars (heavily modded Audis and a Mini) with big brake kits. They are an excellent pad. I find it interesting that Hawk says they have a smooth initial bite though, as they're pretty binary IMHO. Hawk has a newer compound that is supposedly smoother - the DTC70. I have several friends who also run the ht10s and are very satisfied with them.

I have not had bad experienced with them on the street. When cold they bite like CRAZY, but they will put a city bus to shame when it comes to squealing. They're not particularly hard on rotors when cold compared to, say, a Hawk Blue old school abrasive pad. Everyone I know who uses them drives to and from the track. Hell, I have one buddy who doesn't mind the squealing who uses them on a commuter car.

Consistently getting fade on a lightish car like the 135i (I have a portly B6 S4, 3800 pounds, 6-pot Alcons) could be due to insufficient airflow or insurficient thermal mass of the rotor. The 135i oem rotors aren't really all that big and they're definitely a bit thin. :-/