[OpenFlash]

Hi guys,
I've been testing our meth system on our development car since last year and I've been very happy with how it works. So happy, we finally made it a PnP kit available to our customers

However, since last week we have made some more advaces and after some more road testing, it will eventually makes its way into our PROcede/PnP meth kit combo.

Currently there are a few different ways to implement a methanol injection system. Listed below are the different strategies, from least desirable to most desirable:

1) The basic add-on progressive meth kit
This meth just adds a meth kit on to an already existing tune. It's progressive because the rate of methanol flow is a function of boost pressure. The more boost, the more meth flow.
When meth is flowing, the engine gains power due to lower IATs. And under heavy/sustained engine load (or during heatsoak conditions), a bit more power since it would not suffer from knock retard. Basically, when meth is flowing, any power gains are passive.
Absolute power benefits from running meth in this configuration is minimal to moderate. This is similar to what you would see when installing a meth kit on a DME reflash (GIAC, ESS, Dinan, Noelle, etc,.)

2) Add-on progressive meth kit with a hot map
This is like above but instead of running a standard pump-gas tune, you are running a very aggressive tune (similar to what you would run on race gas). Now, with the added meth flow basically substitutes for race gas and you enjoy the extra power that comes from the extra boost, octane bump and charge cooling.
Downsides is this approach you are relying on meth to flow for knock suppression given the hot tune's high boost pressures. So when meth flow isn't quite up to speed yet (at the immediate onset of boost), the tune is too aggressive for a fraction of a second. And worse, when meth runs out, the tune is dangerously aggressive until you realize that something doesn't feel right and lift off the gas.
One can use a flow detector to guard against the last problem by using its warning signal output to trigger a valet or low boost map when the meth system fails (clogs, runs dry, etc,.)
Ultimately, this approach can provide big power gains but at the expense of safety margin and consistency since it relays not only on predictable hardware performance but also real-time DME adaptation to keep everything running safely.

3) Add-on progressive meth with active switching between 2 maps
Similar to the above approach with a few huge exceptions:
-Instead of relying on a meth failure signal (from the flow detector) to reactively trigger a low boost "valet" mode, this approach relies on a meth flow signal (from a different type of flow detector) to switch over to the hot map. This means that when meth flow isn't present (or up to the desired flow rate), the engine is running on a standard pump gas tune. But when meth is flowing, the tuning device instantly switches over to the aggressive hot map. And back to the standard pump gas map when meth flow falls back below the minimal acceptable level.
-The "hot" meth map is not only running more boost, but also more ignition advance. Which means that it does not rely on DME adaptation to add timing in that was originally taken out by knock activity. This means more immediate and consistent power response at full throttle as well as enhanced safety margin since the tune isn't desired to bump against the knock threshold at various states of meth flow.
The downside of this approach is actually less of a downside and more of a short coming. And that is there are only two states of tune: Regular map and Hot map. Yet there are many states of methanol flow. So there are fractions of seconds here and there when there is *some* methanol flowing (but not enough to trigger the mapswitch) yet the engine is still running the standard tune. During this time the car is running more conservatively than it needs to. Certainly safe and better performing that the previous two approaches but not theoretically optimal.
This is the approach currently employed by our PROcede/PnP meth kit combo.

4) Add-on progressive meth kit with PROGRESSIVE mapping
This is something that we've been testing in-house for the past several days and have been thrilled with the results.
This approach is, without a doubt, the ideal solution to integrating a progressive meth system with an existing tune. Instead of relying on the meth flow detector to output an on/off 12v signal to toggle between two distinct maps (a conservative pump gas map and an aggresssive meth map), the meth flow controller will output a variable analog 0-5v signal that is directly proportional to the detected meth flow (ml/min). That is, an output of 0.1v for every 100ml/min worth of meth flow. This 0-5v signal is fed into one of the unused analog inputs to trigger a constantly variable tune. When meth flow is at 0ml/min, the standard pump gas boost/tune/fuel settings are implemented. But as the meth flow rate starts to increase, the tune becomes progressively more aggressive along with it. By the time the flow rate reaches its desired normal flow, the progressive tune has fully evolved from the standard pump gas tune to the full aggressive meth tune.
This approach as all the advantages of Strategy 3 but with none of the shortcomings. There is no discrete switch between one map and the other. So there is no time at which the tune is unnecessarily detuned. Basically, what you have is a tune that constantly adjusts its level of aggressiveness based upon actual meth flow. Basically, the best of both worlds (performance AND safety). And you will also get another datalogging channel (methanol flow in ml/min)!
This is the approach we are currently testing in-house. We are currently refining the max/min ranges so that the tune is properly dialed in at all flow rates. We should release a simple firmware update within a couple of weeks that will allow all users to adopt this new strategy.

NOTE: This new approach will only work with PROcede Rev.2 units as Rev.1 has no unused analog inputs. Rev.1 will still have to rely on Strategy 3 which is still a very good option.

For Rev.2 users running methanol, the update involves swapping 2 existing wires in your PnP methanol system and updating your firmware/map. No additional wires/pins/etc. from us will be necessary

Those will a keen eye may notice that there are no unused pins on the PROcede harness. So where does this unused input come from? Well, we don't need an intake air temp (IAT) input anymore since the Rev.2 can get that value from the CANbus. So instead of the PnP harness tapping into the IAT signal wire, you will just cut it and connected to the 0-5 signal wire from the methanol controller. No mapswitch relay will be used. And yes, there are other wire inputs that, thanks to CANbus integration, could also be considered redundant (o2, tps, boost duty, tmap, etc,.) Pretty neat, huh

FWIW, I don't think this progressive approach has EVER been used in aftermarket meth injection systems. The closest I've seen to it is what we did for Mitsubishi Motors America a few years back when we developed an flexi-fuel (e95/gasoline) EVO 9 for the LA/NY Auto Shows. We used an intake device that would detect the % of alcohol in the fuel and send a 0-5v analog output to our tuning computer which would adjust fuel/ignition/boost mapping progressively. This allowed the car not only to run on gasoline and e85, but any combination of the two. This was especially tough since the stoich of e85 is vastly different than the stoich of gasoline. Lots of trial and error!

Cheers,
shiv

[Alex@AKMotorwerk]

WOW!!!



Can #4 be made into a User Adjustable parameter in the PRocede software? Maybe a min voltage and max voltage... since i know different Safe Injection systems output different voltages during flow.

[GreenPlease]

[Sniz]

hot damn....I'm literally jealous I cant implement that on my car since i'm running a flashed ECU.

very well done, hope it works as well as it theoritcally could.

[RiXst3r]

Once you convert the harness to analog input for progressive meth mapping, what becomes of the old mapswitch digital input on the rev2... is it available still?

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

Once you convert the harness to analog input for progressive meth mapping, what becomes of the old mapswitch digital input on the rev2... is it available still?

It will be available

[maui86]

sweet! so i'm assuming you'll update the instruction guide when finished with the testing :-)

teri

[cn555ic]

wow...this sounds really nice.

[FORCED AIR]

I would imagine that with something as precise as this progressive mapping will be you are going to be recommending a certain meth/water mixture....

Or will users still be able to vary the mixture and/or use denatured alky as opposed to methanol?

[TMR]

WOW!!!

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by FORCED AIR

I would imagine that with something as precise as this progressive mapping will be you are going to be recommending a certain meth/water mixture....

Or will users still be able to vary the mixture and/or use denatured alky as opposed to methanol?

I'd recommend running a certain mixture. I use a 70/30 mix (meth/water) and would recommend others doing the same. But the starting and ending map aggression will be user adjustable. Basicially the tune will slide between map1 and map4. And those can be individualy adjusted as usual.

[ZTUNER]

Shiv,

I guess i will be the only one to call you and other meth kit providers on the topic of safety with your meth kit.

IMO safety should be the number one consideration when installing a device designed to deliver a liquid under high pressure, particularly if the liquid is flammable. If installing a trunk system, the only safe method is an SFI approved fuel cell with appropriate brackets to properly secure the tank to the frame of the vehicle. When using methanol as a liquid, proper ventilation outside of the vehicle must be addressed and the pump CANNOT be placed inside the trunk. The reason is simple. The pump operates at high pressures and if a leak occurs, a serious potential safety problem will result.

Under the hood, inside the engine compartment is the preferred choice, since automobiles come from the manufacturer with a "firewall” already installed. There is no "firewall” present between the trunk and the interior. A fire in the trunk is dangerously close to the fuel tank. You Methnol system sits on top of the battery. Now don't start with " I'm suggesting running a 70 /30 mix blah blah. Its still unsafe. also the use of plastic tubes to run flamable liquid at high pressure is great.

Wonderful

Now flame away

Harry

[335xiRT1]

is this like auto-tuning for meth??

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by ZTUNER

Shiv,

I guess i will be the only one to call you and other meth kit providers on the topic of safety with your meth kit.

IMO safety should be the number one consideration when installing a device designed to deliver a liquid under high pressure, particularly if the liquid is flammable. If installing a trunk system, the only safe method is an SFI approved fuel cell with appropriate brackets to properly secure the tank to the frame of the vehicle. When using methanol as a liquid, proper ventilation outside of the vehicle must be addressed and the pump CANNOT be placed inside the trunk. The reason is simple. The pump operates at high pressures and if a leak occurs, a serious potential safety problem will result.

Under the hood, inside the engine compartment is the preferred choice, since automobiles come from the manufacturer with a "firewall” already installed. There is no "firewall” present between the trunk and the interior. A fire in the trunk is dangerously close to the fuel tank. You Methnol system sits on top of the battery. Now don't start with " I'm suggesting running a 70 /30 mix blah blah. Its still unsafe. also the use of plastic tubes to run flamable liquid at high pressure is great.

Wonderful

Now flame away

Harry

You can drop a lit match in a 70/30 mix of meth/water and it wont ignite. If that is still sketchy for some people, run a 50/50 mix which is the same as windshield washer fluid which also wont ignite and is also trunk mounted in most cars.

As for the pressurized leak scenario, the controller will shut down if flow exceeds the trip point which is pre-adjusted to match the size of the nozzle. So you can literally yank the meth line from the nozzle and the flow will immediately stop.

If mounting a water/mix mix above the battery is a concern, simply draping a plastic shroud around the battery will protect it from any hooligan who wants to play a trick on you.

Shiv

[gian335]

wow this looks very promising for v3 rev2 users...great work shiv.... Also will we be now able to toggle between 4 different maps, soon enough?, even if we do not have the meth system?

[jpsimon]

Originally Posted by gian335

wow this looks very promising for v3 rev2 users...great work shiv.... Also will we be now able to toggle between 4 different maps, soon enough?, even if we do not have the meth system?

yep that's coming soon!

[ontopofm]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

I'd recommend running a certain mixture. I use a 70/30 mix (meth/water) and would recommend others doing the same. But the starting and ending map aggression will be user adjustable. Basicially the tune will slide between map1 and map4. And those can be individualy adjusted as usual.

that mixture makes more power but less cooling than 50/50, right? what's the minimum recommend mixture?

[scalbert]

Soooo, you could also get read the throttle pedal position from CANBus and you have another AI available.

[e.n335]

I wonder whether there would be a PROcede V2 CANBUS meth controller "only" version for the ECU flash guys ...

[Sniz]

Originally Posted by e.n335

I wonder whether there would be a PROcede V2 CANBUS meth controller "only" version for the ECU flash guys ...

that would sell given the right price point, not really sure how you would implement the map switching though.

without the map switching you just have a flashed ECU w progressive meth...like i'm going to be running on my 10 year old BMW.

[e.n335]

Originally Posted by Sniz

that would sell given the right price point, not really sure how you would implement the map switching though.

e.g. transparent ( is this possible ? ) without meth, map n with meth, timing values in between computed by the procede.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by e.n335

e.g. transparent ( is this possible ? ) without meth, map n with meth, timing values in between computed by the procede.

I suppose we could put together a procede/pnp meth system combo for guys running a flash. When meth isn't flowing, the procede tune is pass thru (no boost or ignition timing adjustments). But as meth starts to flow, the procede can progressively increase boost and advance ignition timing. But the hardware/price would no different than those without a flash. Only the mapping is different. Another benefit of this approach is that flash guys will have access to full CANbus datalogging and all the other things the procede users enjoy (user adjustables, throttle delay fix, overboost protection, leanrun protection, etc)

Shiv