[bm323]

There were a number of posts which said that the steering is "numb on center". These posts surfaced only after (if I recall correctly) a car mag review mentioned it not too long ago.

If I understand correctly this "numb on centre"/"some play of the steering on center", it would mean that the F10 would still go straight if I turn the steering so slightly to the left or right(?).

Well I tried this and my F10 would pull to the right or left if I do turn the steering very slightly right/left. Thus, I don't understand the reason for this "numb on centre"/"some play of the steering on center".

My F10 does not have IAS. If you have experienced this so call "numbness", did your F10 have IAS and do you mean that the F10 would not pull to the right/left when you turn the steering slightly to the right/left??

[1HOT BMR]

I believe that people say "numb" when they are describing an absence of resistance to the steering wheel input. Older, non electrically assisted BMWs push back to the center so you have to keep the pressure on the wheel as you negotiate a turn. Those who like that older feeling are describing the new electric steering systems as "non BMW"; "lack of feel"; "no feedback"; etc. I like the electrically assisted steering because I believe that it gives me all the information I need with a very precise response to my inputs. I've only driven a 550 with the regular EPS - it did not have the optional IAS. I'm planning to drive one with IAS before I order mine.

[Zunkung]

I my understanding. The "Numb on center" is mean that you don't really hv much of the road feedback from the steering wheel. For example, you drive your car over the dump but your steering wheel doesn't really (move) or give much feedback of that road dump to the driver, which means, it also doesn't really give much information of the road surface to the driver which sometimes can kill some of the driver confidence. However, i think it doesn't mean that when you turn the steering wheel, the car will not move thou.

I'm not really sure whether i understand it all correctly, or not, but i believe my E90 steering feel is pretty good. I can feel almost all of the wheel and chassis activities on the road, and also how hard the wheels are working on the road under my car, which may b, the New 5 series F10 doesn't delivery that much of road feedback (Especially, when the steering wheel is at the center) thru the steering wheel like other BMWs does.

Also, imo the reason why most of the people who had driven a new 5 series F10 said that it is "Numb on the center feel" is that becuz it is a electric power steering which kindda unactivated while it remain in the center in order to use less power and lower down the emission rate.

I haven't test drive the car thou. I'm looking forward to, very soon.

P.S. Sorry for my poor English skill & Misunderstanding.

[lindros2]

For me, the car not only has a lack of "weight" on-center, it also requires constant inputs to keep the car tracking straight on a straight highway.

The latter part is an issue.

(I have a car without IAS)

[tadtaggert]

The posts by 1Hot BMR and Zunkung above pretty accurately describe the viewpoints. Some of the why's behind it:

The F10 has a new suspension up front, SLA or Multi-Link are some of the terms used to describe it, but in terms of the difference to the struts it replaced on older 5'ers is that the wheels are less off camber when cornering. With struts, when cornering, the off camber aspect of the tires creates a force that essentially makes the tires move back to center, and this force is transmitted through the steering (the 'push back' that 1Hot BMR described).

Now if you lay one end of say a 4 foot stick on your hand and let the other end rest on the ground, if someone 'taps' the stick then you feel it. If you grip the stick tightly with your hand and press the other end against the ground, then when someone taps the stick you feel it also, but the feeling is 'louder' as the tension amplifies the 'resonance' of the stick. In much the same way the off camber tires on the strut suspension 'tensions' the steering and transmits 'feel' louder.

The counter to that is that struts are also notorious for adding noise/vibration to the chassis/steering. On older 5'ers with struts this combination of louder feedback with more vibration/noise creates a very unique 'feel'.

Some like it, some do not, some are expecting one 'language' and feeling another and don't understand, at least until they've spent some time in the car. Even then some like it and some do not.

It is worth noting two things, first that the EPS is more responsive, the boost is imediate. It can also 'programmable', so for those that don't like it perhaps there can be some adaptation.

Second, all of the magazines (with maybe the exception of EVO) that have commented negatively on the steering have basically loved the handling. From a perspective of performance, the F10 is a good move forward.

From a perspective of those wanting to 'feel' the road, it's there but different. For those whose perspective is the feel of older BMW's and are looking for the feel of a specific car, it's not.

[Jim_in_Calgary]

Originally Posted by Zunkung

Ohhh, by the wayy, the electric steering is equipped on every F10.

I thought the Xdrive cars didn't have the electric steering.

[bm323]

Thanks to all, ok I understand numbness eg I suppose numbness like what I found on a loaner Camry's steering. I'll compare more with my E90 steering to check on the numbness. As regards the steering returning to the middle, the F10's steering does, but probably less quick than my E90 as it's stiffer.

Let me try to look for the mag review with the point about "numb on center". The F10's steering is definitely lighter than the E90. When I changed my main drive to my F10, the steering felt (too) light. When I occasionally drive my E90 it felt (too) heavy I can feel the road better in my E90 but I wouldn't say the F10 (a bigger car) is numb As I drive the F10 with adaptive drive in sport mode, it feels just fine whether on center or off center

I did expect my F10 in sport to have a even tighter chassis, as it is supposed to be tighter than one with M sport suspension. It is just about right but I would have preferred it tighter so that there is a wider difference between comfort, normal, and sport. I doubt the M sport suspension is less tight than adaptive drive in sport mode, probably just about the same.

Originally Posted by Zunkung

Ohhh, by the wayy, the electric steering is equipped on every F10.

I'm referring to Integral Active Steering (IAS), in case there is a misunderstanding.

[lindros2]

Originally Posted by Jim_in_Calgary

I thought the Xdrive cars didn't have the electric steering.

You are correct and emoticon-happy man is wrong (Zunkung why litter a post with that crap).

[Soon ExAudi Guy]

Originally Posted by lindros2

You are correct and emoticon-happy man is wrong (Zunkung why litter a post with that crap).

+1

No electric steering on xDrive models. Also, it means no self parking feature either.

(comments sans emoticons!)

[HighlandPete]

My take on the steering (tadtaggert expresses it very well) after my first test drive, not influenced by any opinions or mags'.

I wrote the following back in April.

This example was running 18” wheels and Dunlop RFTs, they worked well and at first it didn’t feel like they were run-flats, ambient temperature about 10-degrees. Steering did seem a bit light, but well connected. But once on the motorway I started sensing the steering was not as precise as I’d choose, in fact over some road imperfections it seemed to go a little vague in mid position, also some vibration was coming back through the wheel, but not matching the road. “I’ve been here before”… some frequencies just don’t cancel out, but get amplified. It becomes clear the steering is not a good as I’d hoped.

On typical UK broken surfaces...

Then we get on the A91, and once the surfaces go in all directions the same old run-flat feel, as on my 17” wheels comes to the for, the front wheels are fighting for the line and makes the steering feel very light and imprecise, as the car is wanting to dart about. I get my wife to also lightly touch the wheel, to feel the road vibrations and strange feedback. Which confirmed, a RFT issue, our car doesn’t do it on normal rubber.

On the second car with 'configurable' steering and running 19" Pirelli shod wheels...

By the first roundabout and onto the A9, we could both tell this car was so different. The ride was more composed, the steering was meaty and precise, I hadn’t even started playing with the sport settings. Once on the M90 it was clear this car was riding far superior to the 530d, push the ‘first’ sport setting and the car just went, even more composed, was taking the road surface imperfections so much better. The ride was slightly more firm on the normal setting, than the first car, but so much more BMW. It thumped out the bumps and ridges without any weird feedback, the steering never had any vagueness at all. In sport setting even better, there was much more control of the way the car responded to uneven surfaces.

My conclusions, the steering feel is affected by the wheel size, tyres and particularly the road surface quality. The more heavily weighted steering with the sport box option adds precision, seems to take some of the 'soft bushing' out of the steering equation. I'm convinced that the run-flats mean the suspension bushing is still compromised, to help rid us of the negative characteristics. If the combination of spec is the wrong mix, we get superficial steering, which isn't typical of the quality many BMW drivers are used to and love. Feel, weighing and feedback are all messed up. Get the spec' balance correct and the steering will be pretty well sorted, acceptable to most of us, a few 'purists' being the exeption.

HighlandPete

[Zunkung]

Ohh,, I'm sorry. I didn't know abut the Xdrive.

[bm323]

HighlandPete, ok I understand your point about the imprecise and light steering when the F10 is not configured well.

What's your understanding about Car & Driver's, quote "The new electric power assist has not only rendered the steering uncommunicative—particularly on-center—but, for some reason, it has also become heavier." as taken from http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mw_535i_page_2

Why the reference to "on-center" (and it being "heavier")? Does this mean the reviewer find the steering more numb (ie less feel of the road) on-center compared to off-center, and the F10's steering is (all the time) heavier compared to the E60?

I don't find the F10 more or less numb on-center compared to off-center, and the steering is light if at all (when not on sport mode), not heavy.

ps yes I agree tadtaggert has explained numbness very well.

[HighlandPete]

Car steering can be un-communicative in mid position and does have the dead or numb feel, but still feel good in the bends. But often shows some weakness there as well, perhaps less critical to the driver. Sometimes it is due to the suspension and/or sub frame bushing being soft, designed to help isolate the road from the steering wheel. An example in the UK was the VW Golf Mk 4, so numb mid centre, due to bushing selection, it spoiled the steering.

Another reason is the tyre choice, shows at mid point in the steering, takes away a layer of precision. Also if the speed of the rack (ratio) is too low and power assistance is not well sorted it shows as a vague/numb/un-communicative steering, noticed more so in the mid position. Straight line driving often (or feels) it needs constant correction. This has been commented on for some F10/11 cars, spec' sensitive it appears.

As to the heavy feel, it can be simply due to the artificial nature of the EPS settings. Also depends what a tester views as light/heavy and well weighted.

HighlandPete

[PoleApart]

There's a quite significant difference in steering weight between Comfort / Normal and Sport modes on the adjustable damper cars. Comfort = light, sport = heavy. You can configure Sport mode to affect only the chassis or driveline (gearbox in BMW speak I guess?).

[delvek]

My 550 is usually on sport mode with only the chassis "affected". I am not much of a hair splitter and I think its handle is incredible. I can take the same turns at much faster speeds and more rail like then my 08 535.

Honestly, I remain confused what all the discussion is about, its a dream to drive.

[pharding]

The IAS feels a tad sloppy when going straight. My 08 550i M-Sport has active steering yet it does not feel sloppy when going straight. The F10 is a great car however BMW dropped the ball on the steering system. I am sure that BMW is working on a software fix as I write this. The E60 has very similar issues with steering when it first came out. BMW fixed it.

[bm323]

Yes, I always have to reset the toggle to sport when I drive, a bit annoying. My sport mode has been configured to chassis adjusted only, since collection of my F10

pharding, as regards "feels a tad sloppy when going straight", is it as described by HighlandPete?

[delvek]

@ bm23,

Yea, if there was one thing that I could wave a wand and change it would be that the last suspension mode was saved for the next start up. Mine seems to always default to normale.

[HighlandPete]

Originally Posted by delvek

My 550 is usually on sport mode with only the chassis "affected". I am not much of a hair splitter and I think its handle is incredible. I can take the same turns at much faster speeds and more rail like then my 08 535.

Honestly, I remain confused what all the discussion is about, its a dream to drive.

I think there are lots of opinion coming back through the forums, I'm not too sure we are all talking the same things, as the perceptions are quite varied.

I've had a fair bit to say, how I find the cars I've so far tested, but I'd not say the handling is in any way deficient in the standard set up when pushing on, even if I find the steering less than ideal. What I did find, the 535i with the adjustable steering weighting, set on sport, was the best for feel and control, so the handling felt even better and more balanced. So we could well be talking 'layers' of refinement and handling balance.

I've got a day booked for a long session with the full Adaptive Drive package later in September, so look forward to getting the 'other side' of the F10 experience, to see if it is worth going after, for even better dynamics.

We may be making critical comment, but from my side it is not to be read as 'bad vs good', more 'good vs excellent'. I'd not turn down the car on the view of "it's too bad..." rather I'm after the best I can get and afford.

HighlandPete

[delvek]

Thanks Pete, well said and explained. Look forward to your impressions with the extended drive session.

I will add further, the one time I switched the mode to comfort I almost crashed ... it was like driving in the BIG back seat of my dads 73 Impala, was very bouncy and soft and honestly have not and will not ever find an application for it short of transporting the elderly perhaps.

[ronn]

Does anyone know who is supplying the EPS systems for the 2011 5 series? Is it the ZF servo motor eps system? Insideline in a June article talks about BMW switching suppliers for EPS in the new X3 which I believe may be Thyssenkrup electro-mechanical EPS- any knowledge here please.

[bm323]

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/10/12/vi...sumer-reports/

Check out the video at 2:05, the phrases "not as fun" to drive and lacks "on-center feel" are "popular", not initially though. But this guy says the lack of on-center feel is particularly evident when the F10 is at its limits. This seems to be contrary to the view that the lack of on-center feel is when the F10 is going straight, but fine when the f10 is at its limits/twisties etc?

---------------------------------

Quote "While there is still direct mechanical linkage between the steering wheel and the drive wheels, an electric motor is used to assist steering on demand. As the electric motor kicks in, it seems to distort feedback through the wheel. Since the electric motor is only used when steering input is added, there is less energy consumed verses a conventional hydraulic steering assist setup, but this energy savings comes at a high price. On center feel is numb and leaves you guessing most of the time. Once the wheel is turned beyond 5 degrees, more information is progressively fed through the wheel, but still not in the raw, mechanical fashion we so adore. Road undulations are felt through the wheel, but there is definitely a middleman in this equation. While efficient electronic systems do have their place, it seems that this steering technology has evolved too far. Lets go back one evolutionary step and restore the pure, honest, steering feel of 5 series past."

http://www.bmwblog.com/2010/08/06/bm...f-the-fittest/