E92 M3 Brakes vs E46 M3 brakes

swamp2 · 10-27-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by enigma

Any word on the brakes? I have a picture of my E46 M3 brakes on fire from a few years back due to overheating. I am hoping they fixed this problem.

Looks to me like the new M3 will have some nice brakes (unless this test car for the track has special, non-production, track brakes.) I can't quite tell if these are double piston (or 4 piston) but they certainly are much bigger and different than E46 M3. Does anyone recall if the E46 test cars were ever spotted with special, larger brakes for track testing? I seriously doubt it as they want to test everything as built for production. Anyway the conclusion is good - new brakes should (finally) be as big and good looking as BMWs stop.

replicat · 10-27-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swamp2

Looks to me like the new M3 will have some nice brakes (unless this test car for the track has special, non-production, track brakes.) I can't quite tell if these are double piston (or 4 piston) but they certainly are much bigger and different than E46 M3. Does anyone recall if the E46 test cars were ever spotted with special, larger brakes for track testing? I seriously doubt it as they want to test everything as built for production. Anyway the conclusion is good - new brakes should (finally) be as big and good looking as BMWs stop.

I think that the brakes will definitely be bigger than the e46s standard brakes, but those look like the brakes that the ZCP/CSL comes with, or maybe a hair bigger.

Edit: And if those are the standard brakes, imagine the (if there is one) competition brakes! they'll be like 14.* inches!

Last E92 M3 · 10-27-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by replicat

I think that the brakes will definitely be bigger than the e46s standard brakes, but those look like the brakes that the ZCP/CSL comes with, or maybe a hair bigger.

Edit: And if those are the standard brakes, imagine the (if there is one) competition brakes! they'll be like 14.* inches!

what i am thinking.
it's guaranteed to have better brakes than E46 standars ones
who knows what they are going to put on zcp/csl E92

cant wait :rocks:

JK42 · 10-27-2006, 08:04 PM

They better have better brakes, the standard E46 M3 brakes faded on very short tracks with just one or two rounds. The M3 CS (Competition Sport) package brakes that were lifted from the CSL and were sold in the last E46 M3 model year were a little better.

Best regards,

Jussi

enigma · 10-28-2006, 04:17 PM

The catch with the brakes is they will also have a lot more to do. On a track the amount of brake you need goes up almost linearly with the amount of HP the car makes. So right off the bat they better be 30% better just to stay even with the E46.

The thing with brakes is the rotors and calipers don't tell the whole story. Just as important is how the airflow is setup. This was the big weakness of the E46 was a lack of air feeding the rotors.

replicat · 10-28-2006, 06:49 PM

The pictures of the "final bumper" appear to have big holes on the sides, hopefully some ducts lead to the brakes.

JK42 · 10-29-2006, 09:10 AM

I'm pretty sure it'll be the same style as with the M5/M6 - which is, OEM Brembo discs. That is, BMW-branded brakes made originally by Brembo - that is, the best brakes that money can buy. The brakes will probably be 17" in size just like on the M5/M6 so the minimum wheel size will be 18" just like on them, but it'll probably come with 19" wheels by default, just like them.

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-29-2006, 11:41 AM

17 inch discs or including caliper?

I thought the M5 came with 14.7 inches in the front.

swamp2 · 10-29-2006, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JK42

The brakes will probably be 17" in size just like on the M5/M6 so the minimum wheel size will be 18" just like on them, but it'll probably come with 19" wheels by default, just like them.

Best regards,

Jussi

Need to get your facts checked! You obviously know and care a great deal about BMWs but you may need a proof reader. The brakes on the E60 M5 are 14.7" F/14.6" R. 17" brakes are absurdly large, and even if made would take 24" or so SUV rims. You also stated previously that the M5 (or M6) has perfect 50-50 weight distribution. This is untrue it is 52-48. Your overall credibility is called into question on all the new M3 specs with such misinformation on released vehicles.

JK42 · 10-29-2006, 04:42 PM

That would be including the caliper. That's why you can't fit smaller wheels into M5/M6 than 18" - I WAS talking about MINIMUM wheel size after all, not the exact brake size which is where anyone's guess will be as good as mine.

The 50:50 "perfect weight distribution" is always "a little off" on _ALL_ BMW models, and will (also) depend on the passenger and cargo layout, options (yes, navigators for example weigh quite a bit) and even fuel the load, duh! - As is logical, so that one is really splitting hairs, I think all of us know that fact, so that's a real cheap punch to pull. But if that makes you suspect my knowledge on BMW's, then feel free. I've just worked with them for little over 9 years now. And I could go to the shop tomorrow and weigh 5 different new M5's and have them all have a little different 50:50 weight distro if we go into decimals deep enough. But even the numbers you quote, 52:48 tend to differ due to options, EU or US spec model and fuel load. If you're talking DIN weighing then I guess that would be about right, I don't remember it off the top of my head so I would have to check to be sure.

Jussi

JK42 · 10-29-2006, 07:16 PM

BTW, People haven't been complaining about the current M5 / M6 brakes much, but some who race them have replaced them with even larger brake discs from Brembo. The old E39 M5 had BMW's own brakes, not Brembo, which faded in basically just one fast lap on almost any track. So it would be a good guess they'll probably use the same parts as on the M5 / M6, maybe an improved model. Porsche offers the option of having improved OEM Brembos on some of their models, perhaps BMW M might do the same at some point. But then again, usually they don't offer many or any such tech options as their approach and mindset is to make the car "perfect" on one go, without you needing to buy extra options for it to perform well. In that aspect the OEM Brembo's were a great move. I was dissapointed to see they didn't do the same for the Z4 M's, which had to do with the worse M3 CSL brakes. Then again, it weighs so much less that the brakes are not going to have to face so much wear and tear anyway as on the M5/M6.

Best regards,

Jussi

Jason · 10-30-2006, 12:08 PM

Move on people. Thanks.

JK42 · 10-30-2006, 03:05 PM

Thanks for removing most of the nonsense from this thread,

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 10-30-2006, 04:05 PM

Yeah, it will make it easier in about ten years to sift through the rubbish.

enigma · 11-07-2006, 11:03 AM

Just a related note. I got back from two days at Laguna Seca. A friend of mine took his new M Coupe to the track and the stock brakes faded after 4 laps. He tried replacing the pads, bleeding the brakes, etc but was never able to get the car to stop reliability.

That pretty much mirrored my experience with my M3 there. I put on new rotors and pads the night befor going down. Replaced the front pads the next night after they were worn out in one day. Then after the 2nd day had to replace all the pads and the front rotors again.

There was a comp pack M3 that didn't report problems. I never saw him drive so I don't know how hard he was pushing. The guy in the new M Coupe was a far faster driver.

The lotus, P-Car, Subaru, and Evo owners were mostly doing fine with their stock brakes.

Don't Tread On Me · 11-07-2006, 12:19 PM

I hope that the stopping power is fixed. BMW makes brakes that can handle somewaht heavy urban commuting, but nothing more. Breaks are the first mod I make as the car needs to be able to stop and not fade. This is BMW's big weak point as far as I am concernded. I put a 14 inch 6 pot drilled and slotted (I would go with slotted for strenght next time) on my 02 M3 coupe and moved them to my wifes 03 M3 CIC when I sold my coupe. Wow did that make a world of difference on both cars, they went from just decent breaking to bring on the the other heavy weight Germans I think I have you.

BMW please make this right.

replicat · 11-07-2006, 01:26 PM

The ZCP brakes are awesome, they are alot different than the regular e46 m3 brakes. After driving them both you can see that there it a big difference in the stopping power, and the fade. I don't however like that they are cross drilled. But all in all it was a big upgrade and a problem that BMW adressed after years of complaints from the e46.

I think that we'll see much improved brakes for the e92.

-Pete.

enigma · 11-07-2006, 01:56 PM

Um, the ZCP brakes and the new M Coupe (z4 based) are the same. They did not do well.

JK42 · 11-07-2006, 05:52 PM

Yeah, it sure does. Better than E46 M3 regular brakes, but still not OEM Brembo's like the M5/M6 and the future new M3.

Best regards,

Jussi

Don't Tread On Me · 11-07-2006, 08:12 PM

Yeah have to agree the ZCP are slightly better, but not in the right ball park. I tried a friends so equipped Z4 M coupe and I was wanting more brake and less fade after 4 laps, not the 3 of the standard set up. Better yes. Problem fixed, nope.

JK42 · 11-07-2006, 08:13 PM

But you can always buy Brembos on the Z4 M Coupé. Friend of mine has one with self-installed Brembo's with the brakes around 15" and 19" caliper, mandatory 20" tyres, for racing and summer driving only. It's an amazing car.

Best regards,

Jussi

replicat · 11-07-2006, 10:03 PM

Hmm, I can't argue that, I wasn't lucky enough to try them at the track. It was only here at Angeles Crest, but they felt alot better than the regular m3 brakes.

Agreed the brembo gran turismos, are awesome brakes. I hope your right about the e92 m3 coming with some brembos stock.

10-27-2006, 08:04 PM	#4
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	They better have better brakes, the standard E46 M3 brakes faded on very short tracks with just one or two rounds. The M3 CS (Competition Sport) package brakes that were lifted from the CSL and were sold in the last E46 M3 model year were a little better. Best regards, Jussi
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10-28-2006, 04:17 PM	#5
enigma Captain 13 Rep 689 Posts Drives: E92 M3 and Elise Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Land of the Microchip iTrader: (0)	The catch with the brakes is they will also have a lot more to do. On a track the amount of brake you need goes up almost linearly with the amount of HP the car makes. So right off the bat they better be 30% better just to stay even with the E46. The thing with brakes is the rotors and calipers don't tell the whole story. Just as important is how the airflow is setup. This was the big weakness of the E46 was a lack of air feeding the rotors.
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10-28-2006, 06:49 PM	#6
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	The pictures of the "final bumper" appear to have big holes on the sides, hopefully some ducts lead to the brakes.
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10-29-2006, 09:10 AM	#7
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	I'm pretty sure it'll be the same style as with the M5/M6 - which is, OEM Brembo discs. That is, BMW-branded brakes made originally by Brembo - that is, the best brakes that money can buy. The brakes will probably be 17" in size just like on the M5/M6 so the minimum wheel size will be 18" just like on them, but it'll probably come with 19" wheels by default, just like them. Best regards, Jussi
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10-29-2006, 11:41 AM	#8
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	17 inch discs or including caliper? I thought the M5 came with 14.7 inches in the front.
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10-29-2006, 04:42 PM	#10
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	That would be including the caliper. That's why you can't fit smaller wheels into M5/M6 than 18" - I WAS talking about MINIMUM wheel size after all, not the exact brake size which is where anyone's guess will be as good as mine. The 50:50 "perfect weight distribution" is always "a little off" on _ALL_ BMW models, and will (also) depend on the passenger and cargo layout, options (yes, navigators for example weigh quite a bit) and even fuel the load, duh! - As is logical, so that one is really splitting hairs, I think all of us know that fact, so that's a real cheap punch to pull. But if that makes you suspect my knowledge on BMW's, then feel free. I've just worked with them for little over 9 years now. And I could go to the shop tomorrow and weigh 5 different new M5's and have them all have a little different 50:50 weight distro if we go into decimals deep enough. But even the numbers you quote, 52:48 tend to differ due to options, EU or US spec model and fuel load. If you're talking DIN weighing then I guess that would be about right, I don't remember it off the top of my head so I would have to check to be sure. Jussi
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10-29-2006, 07:16 PM	#11
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	BTW, People haven't been complaining about the current M5 / M6 brakes much, but some who race them have replaced them with even larger brake discs from Brembo. The old E39 M5 had BMW's own brakes, not Brembo, which faded in basically just one fast lap on almost any track. So it would be a good guess they'll probably use the same parts as on the M5 / M6, maybe an improved model. Porsche offers the option of having improved OEM Brembos on some of their models, perhaps BMW M might do the same at some point. But then again, usually they don't offer many or any such tech options as their approach and mindset is to make the car "perfect" on one go, without you needing to buy extra options for it to perform well. In that aspect the OEM Brembo's were a great move. I was dissapointed to see they didn't do the same for the Z4 M's, which had to do with the worse M3 CSL brakes. Then again, it weighs so much less that the brakes are not going to have to face so much wear and tear anyway as on the M5/M6. Best regards, Jussi
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10-30-2006, 12:08 PM	#12
Jason Administrator 40710 Rep 21,238 Posts Drives: F80 M3 Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: USA iTrader: (0)	Move on people. Thanks.
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10-30-2006, 03:05 PM	#13
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Thanks for removing most of the nonsense from this thread, Best regards, Jussi
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10-30-2006, 04:05 PM	#14
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Yeah, it will make it easier in about ten years to sift through the rubbish.
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11-07-2006, 11:03 AM	#15
enigma Captain 13 Rep 689 Posts Drives: E92 M3 and Elise Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Land of the Microchip iTrader: (0)	Just a related note. I got back from two days at Laguna Seca. A friend of mine took his new M Coupe to the track and the stock brakes faded after 4 laps. He tried replacing the pads, bleeding the brakes, etc but was never able to get the car to stop reliability. That pretty much mirrored my experience with my M3 there. I put on new rotors and pads the night befor going down. Replaced the front pads the next night after they were worn out in one day. Then after the 2nd day had to replace all the pads and the front rotors again. There was a comp pack M3 that didn't report problems. I never saw him drive so I don't know how hard he was pushing. The guy in the new M Coupe was a far faster driver. The lotus, P-Car, Subaru, and Evo owners were mostly doing fine with their stock brakes. __________________ Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
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11-07-2006, 12:19 PM	#16
Don't Tread On Me New Member 0 Rep 5 Posts Drives: 2002 M3, 2003 M3, 2004 330xi Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Low Country, SC iTrader: (0)	I hope that the stopping power is fixed. BMW makes brakes that can handle somewaht heavy urban commuting, but nothing more. Breaks are the first mod I make as the car needs to be able to stop and not fade. This is BMW's big weak point as far as I am concernded. I put a 14 inch 6 pot drilled and slotted (I would go with slotted for strenght next time) on my 02 M3 coupe and moved them to my wifes 03 M3 CIC when I sold my coupe. Wow did that make a world of difference on both cars, they went from just decent breaking to bring on the the other heavy weight Germans I think I have you. BMW please make this right.
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11-07-2006, 01:26 PM	#17
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	The ZCP brakes are awesome, they are alot different than the regular e46 m3 brakes. After driving them both you can see that there it a big difference in the stopping power, and the fade. I don't however like that they are cross drilled. But all in all it was a big upgrade and a problem that BMW adressed after years of complaints from the e46. I think that we'll see much improved brakes for the e92. -Pete.
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11-07-2006, 01:56 PM	#18
enigma Captain 13 Rep 689 Posts Drives: E92 M3 and Elise Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Land of the Microchip iTrader: (0)	Um, the ZCP brakes and the new M Coupe (z4 based) are the same. They did not do well. __________________ Manual gearboxes, the rotary dial of cars.
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11-07-2006, 05:52 PM	#19
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	Yeah, it sure does. Better than E46 M3 regular brakes, but still not OEM Brembo's like the M5/M6 and the future new M3. Best regards, Jussi
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11-07-2006, 08:12 PM	#20
Don't Tread On Me New Member 0 Rep 5 Posts Drives: 2002 M3, 2003 M3, 2004 330xi Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Low Country, SC iTrader: (0)	Yeah have to agree the ZCP are slightly better, but not in the right ball park. I tried a friends so equipped Z4 M coupe and I was wanting more brake and less fade after 4 laps, not the 3 of the standard set up. Better yes. Problem fixed, nope.
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11-07-2006, 08:13 PM	#21
JK42 First Lieutenant 19 Rep 374 Posts Drives: E70 BMW X5 4.8i Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Northern Europe iTrader: (0)	But you can always buy Brembos on the Z4 M Coupé. Friend of mine has one with self-installed Brembo's with the brakes around 15" and 19" caliper, mandatory 20" tyres, for racing and summer driving only. It's an amazing car. Best regards, Jussi
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11-07-2006, 10:03 PM	#22
replicat Lieutenant 23 Rep 515 Posts Drives: 40MPG Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Southern California iTrader: (0)	Hmm, I can't argue that, I wasn't lucky enough to try them at the track. It was only here at Angeles Crest, but they felt alot better than the regular m3 brakes. Agreed the brembo gran turismos, are awesome brakes. I hope your right about the e92 m3 coming with some brembos stock.
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