[M3 Eater]

I have been running meth now for about 6 months. I have been using JB3 as my tune and as a lot of folks know, there is some work to do to make sure that timing is sufficient for the level of boost being run.

I am currently waiting on the Jb3 G4 update to help log timing easier and provide more absolute boost delivery but dialing in the correct ammount, mix, psi delivery are crutial if you want a smooth timing curve.

I recently installed a DO # 10 nozzle/ Adapter in the flat spot on the stock charge pipe. I took a few runs to make sure I was reaching target boost and that there were no signifigant leaks in the system. After a few runs PWM dropped into a healthy range and I flipped over to BT to log timing.

On the first run timing was amazing until 4200rpms...it was 11.25 and then dropped to 7.8. This 8ish # seems to be the DME fall back point if it sees your running too rich. I have seen this drop several times when timing exceeds 11 degrees at RPM range of 4000. I THOUGHT I WASN'T GETTING ENOUGH METH. I kept looking for way to increase the meth at this RPM and what I was doing was making the situation worse. Its my theroy that there is in fact too much meth, timing is too high and the DME is adjusting for SAFETY...

I think that after a few runs the DME will figure out that we have plenty of fuel here to keep timing high but would the car run better even after adaptations occur at a lower octane rating?

Let's say I dial up the max psi delivery so that I am not getting a full dose in the beginning of 3rd gear. Keep timing under 11 until after say 5000rpms.

Another idea is to add water to the mix. This should drop the octane a bit and keep timing a tad lower through the entire spray range ( its going as high as 15 degrees)

I could bump up to map 10. This requires a bit more octane and would pull a few of those degrees back. No failsafe currently so this isn't really an option for me currently

Finally I was thinking I could yank the #10 nozzle and go with the #7.



Here is the cop out answer.... sell the jb3 and buy a procede. No need to post that guys if it appears to be your bright idea as a solution. I have had perfect timing with a larger nozzle after the DME adapts. The real question is, what is the optimal timing range for the car. Does it run faster the higher the timing ...always?? or is the DME dragging us back when the timing is too high to where the car will perform optimally.

[tscdennab]

Do you have a progressive meth setup ? Or fixed ? It it was progressive I think you could adjust it somehow, right ?

[M3 Eater]

Its progressive. I engage at about 7 psi and max out at about 13psi.

Progressive is really a gimik when talking about WoT and a 1/4 mile run.

Its miliseconds until you are at 100% duty that the curve does its thing.

So having your kit set to 13psi basic is pretty much the same as a progressive kit with max duty set the same 13 psi. Only time you might see a variation in spray is during a shift and my min psi is 14 inbetween shifts so meth is spraying full blast for the whole run just following putting the pedal to the floor.

So I can raise the max psi to say 14 so I get a small break at the shift but I am seeing the DME pulling timing either at 4000rpms in 3rd, or 4th gear if timming is above 11 degrees that soon. I used to have issues right after a shift but what I have realized is that anytime ignition goes above 11 during the time the DME is learning to adjust for octane it will drop to its set point..... 8 degrees of timing.

I was thinking I could reset the knock control and the octane in commands with BT and run map 8 with meth spraying as it learns. Usually I adapt the car to stock trim and then turn on my tune but I think I may try doing this and see if it will automatically adjust right away to the higher octane during spray.

My desire to have a track ready car is fleeting and now I just want a map 8 car, solid, fast, optimized, and reliable. It will be nice every now and then to map up and have the capiblities to support the extra boost but for now, having timing under control is my goal. I will prob end up running map 5 with meth and I dont want to be taxing the DME with adaptions when its all said and done.

[tscdennab]

Would it help if your trigger was based on the injector duty cycle as opposed to boost ? I know there are some manufacturers offering this option.

[M3 Eater]

I am currently using a labonte controller, the most affordable one actually. I think they offer a controller with 3D mapping. I think RPM, boost, and flow all are crunched to make sure that the exact right amount of meth is being sprayed.

.

I am sorry to admit this but most of the meth guys are switching tunes. I am one of the few JB3 guys left running meth and its a shame that BMS is not changing their tune quickly enough to address this situation. They are still aggressivley marketing meth but not attempting to integrate timing control. For a long time it made sense that the DME was the best way to stay safe but now we see the Tune, the dMe and the meth are all going in different directions and getting them all on the same page takes time, and a few passes at WOT. so I continue to work on an equation, that many say, has no solution.

I think that the Procede approach to timing correction can help the Jb3. I will post a run where the DME drags timing down to 8 when clearly there is no clog, no air, plenty of meth in the mix. I feel that 3 or 4 more runs with no changes made will show a smooth timing curve but at what cost?

[vasillalov]

Just out of sheer curiosity: are you running on stock turbos and on what psi?

[M3 Eater]

here is an example of timing going to 11+ and then dropping to 8 for no real good reason. As you can see, there is plenty of timing all around the drop. There is no real change in boost so the controller is spraying hard at max duty all through the run. I was troubleshooting my system for weeks trying to make this go away and it wasn't the meth system....its the DME ( i think). I does not like timing above 11 before the vanos event...4500rpms. (this is my best guess for now) I will do a few more runs with no changes to controller, meth mix, or maps. I bet we see the DME adjust.

Then I will try to re adapt the knock sensor and octane rating with BT and see if it figures out right away that the extra octane is something it can expect on a regular basis and keep jb3 users from thinking that they have a meth injection issue...

[themyst]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

here is an example of timing going to 11+ and then dropping to 8 for no real good reason. As you can see, there is plenty of timing all around the drop. There is no real change in boost so the controller is spraying hard at max duty all through the run. I was troubleshooting my system for weeks trying to make this go away and it wasn't the meth system....its the DME ( i think). I does not like timing above 11 before the vanos event...4500rpms. (this is my best guess for now) I will do a few more runs with no changes to controller, meth mix, or maps. I bet we see the DME adjust.

Then I will try to re adapt the knock sensor and octane rating with BT and see if it figures out right away that the extra octane is something it can expect on a regular basis and keep jb3 users from thinking that they have a meth injection issue...

I say it's a meth injection issue or a meth mix issue and unrelated to your tune. Maybe even hardware issues like plugs, injectors or hpfp. A properly running meth kit does not need any CPS offset at reasonable boost levels (16-17psi max).

[M3 Eater]

I am running map 8 which is 17psi peak and tapers down to about 14.5 at the shift from 3rd to 4th. These are brand new turbos so the upgraded design with upgraded wastegates. These are the turbos that come on the 335 IS.

I can get 20 out them, all i have to do ask but I would like to get about 16 psi and see 400whp. I am just looking to sustain 16-18 psi and keep timing at 10 degrees.

I know now that I am not knocking when I see the timing drop and that makes me feel a bit better.

[M3 Eater]

Originally Posted by themyst

I say it's a meth injection issue or a meth mix issue and unrelated to your tune. Maybe even hardware issues like plugs, injectors or hpfp. A properly running meth kit does not need any CPS offset at reasonable boost levels (16-17psi max).

this is a common response from those that have changed tunes.....


what you'll find is that this will flatten out after a few runs...

Ill show you!

plugs, injectors and hpfp are all new!

[M3 Eater]

here is an example of the same set up after a few runs..


No i didn't change my plugs... or my injectors, or my hpfp or my tune.

I just let the DME adapt for about5 or 6 runs. Above is an example of the first run after ECU reset and all adaptions. I appoligize if I didn't make it clear that we are talking about the DME and not about tunes, or clogs, or controllers. Yes we want to optimize all of these items but its the DME that is governing the timing here. Spraying more meth doesn't make this go away and infact can make this dip worse until the DME adapts completely.

So we are talking about training the DME during adaptions so we can get the most out of or car. Getting solid 10-11 degrees on our first run if thats whats going to make it run strongest. I think a smaller nozzle would have brought our timing down so that 11 is the highest possible score we could acheive, I think that more water could have done the same thing. I think that asking for more boost could have done this.

So what we are looking for here is the the optimal range of degrees of timing for the strongest car possible. As far as I know we have been shooting for 10 + but apparantly there is a situation where too much timing/octane/meth can convince the DME to cut back. Eventually the DME will stop doing this but would it be better to never show the DME this much octane?

[tscdennab]

I think you will have much better luck finding answers to your questions on the other forum, which is far more technical in nature.

[atlharry]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

I think you will have much better luck finding answers to your questions on the other forum, which is far more technical in nature.

I think that just depends on which threads you read...

[cn555ic]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

I am currently using a labonte controller, the most affordable one actually. I think they offer a controller with 3D mapping. I think RPM, boost, and flow all are crunched to make sure that the exact right amount of meth is being sprayed.

I know that CMGS integrates with Jb3 the best and thats what I should have went with. Perhaps after my fmic upgrade I will revisit the controller option and switch.

I am sorry to admit this but most of the meth guys are switching tunes. I am one of the few JB3 guys left running meth and its a shame that BMS is not changing their tune quickly enough to address this situation. They are still aggressivley marketing meth but not attempting to integrate timing control. For a long time it made sense that the DME was the best way to stay safe but now we see the Tune, the dMe and the meth are all going in different directions and getting them all on the same page takes time, and a few passes at WOT. I have determined that I don't want to do business with Shiv and so I continue to work on an equation, that many say, has no solution.

I think that the Procede approach to timing correction can help the Jb3. I will post a run where the DME drags timing down to 8 when clearly there is no clog, no air, plenty of meth in the mix. I feel that 3 or 4 more runs with no changes made will show a smooth timing curve but at what cost?

I know you have some concerns on your timing drops, given your concerns how can you let your feelings towards Shiv sway you away from buying his tune...I mean its not like you need to have him over to eat dinner on the same dinner table...You dont need to like a person to use their product, its the product that your interested in...

[Clap135]

meth has no effect on a/f ratio on this car.
This car has targets, if you add more meth, the car will remove fuel and still hit its target.

Your timing drops are caused by the vanos transition period which some car are plagued with. Why it exactly happens, i don't know as I have never personally seen it or logged it. I just saw it a punch of times on various car, mostly automatic for some reason.

[vasillalov]

I've not felt the "vanos event" that everyone talks about ever occurring in my 6MT either.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

If vanos works anything like Vtec would, I remember Fuel and ignitoin were hard to keep smooth between those transitions when tuning. They could eventually be tuned almost out completely, but at the end of the day, getting it close was good enough (on the conservative side of fuel and ignition of course).

Again, assuming it opens up the intake valves rather quickly at once, I could see a reason there might the ever so slightest burp at that time.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by vasillalov

I've not felt the "vanos event" that everyone talks about ever occurring in my 6MT either.

Now that you mention it, I don't recall seeing it on a 6mt car either. I am assuming the OP is an AT?

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Clap135

Now that you mention it, I don't recall seeing it on a 6mt car either. I am assuming the OP is an AT?

+1 never had a VANOS event on my 6mt either.

[OpenFlash]

Originally Posted by cn555ic

I know you have some concerns on your timing drops, given your concerns how can you let your feelings towards Shiv sway you away from buying his tune...I mean its not like you need to have him over to eat dinner on the same dinner table...You dont need to like a person to use their product, its the product that your interested in...

Incorrect. I reserve the right to invite myself over for dinner for every Procede sold. Ask around and check the fine print.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by tscdennab

I think you will have much better luck finding answers to your questions on the other forum, which is far more technical in nature.

Dont worry im on both forums now

OP you already know my opinion on the subject.

[FotiosF90M5]

Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu

Incorrect. I reserve the right to invite myself over for dinner for every Procede sold. Ask around and check the fine print.

lol....