[Mr. 5]

I gave my car to GIAC the other day so they could help develop a race gas/meth map. I was thinking...Woohoo!
But, then they called me a couple hours in the day to tell me that my car is misfiring at peak boost and asked me if I felt anything like that on the road.
#1, I really don't go WOT in 4th all the way up to redline and #2, the load that they put on the mustang dyno is a pretty strong load and we were wondering if that was another reason why I haven't felt anything.
No matter what, something is wrong.

We all talked about it and thought that the spark plugs were the answer so I picked up new plugs and installed them that evening.
The next day I get a message that the car is better but still misfiring.
I called to say to turn off the meth, but they already did it and guess what happened? The misfires completely stopped.
Unfortunately, the tuning had to stop because if the meth was turned on, the car lost power. If meth was off the car was running perfect.
They actually had some progress becuase there was still some MS109 in the car but they would have liked to test with the MS109 and meth.

Today, I took the nozzle out of the arm to see if anything needed to be cleaned. The Snow performance nozzle comes with a screen to filter out the meth. Look what I found...





So, I cleaned it very well with brake cleaner and then dropped the nozzle and the nozzle elbow in methanol and let it sit for about a half an hour.



Now, the nozzle filter looks like this:




In summary, I'd like to stress to everyone running meth to perform maintenance on their system on a regular basis because just because it's spraying, doesn't mean that it's spraying well.

The problem that was happening in my case was that the meth wasn't behaving as much of a mist when it was spraying. It was behaving more like a spray. The problem with this is that the meth spray can puddle up and/or create droplets inside the intake system. These droplets don't like to burn and they create misfires.

[themyst]

I stress this point repeatedly but no one seems to want to buy a failsafe or do any maintenance related to the use of meth injection. I clean out my nozzle every 2-3 months and although it doesn't look anywhere as bad as yours did, this is a good wakeup call to everyone.

Nice post.

[enrita]

thanks for posting this, definetely worth it clean the nozzles often!

[M3 Eater]

um you have a failsafe right? it didn't catch this?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Ive stressed many times on the other forum, the importance of methanol kit maintenance. I would say every 3-4 months should be a all around check of filters, nozzles, connections, check-valves/solenoids ETC

Flow test, and check ups on flow sensors and/or failsafes.


One finding I had in the past in a pick up pre pump tube.

[vasillalov]

Wouldn't it make sense to put a big inline filter between the meth pump and the meth tank? That way the filter at the nozzle won't get clogged as much?

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by M3 Eater

um you have a failsafe right? it didn't catch this?

Please explain how your failsafe works and I'll tell you if your failsafe would have cought this.

I have an IAT gage right in front of me and the temps were dropping. Meth was working. It just wasn't working correctly.

[Clap135]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Please explain how your failsafe works and I'll tell you if your failsafe would have cought this.

I have an IAT gage right in front of me and the temps were dropping. Meth was working. It just wasn't working correctly.

A failsafe catches all this stuff. If you debree, you are dropping flow, if you dropping flow, the failsafe lets you know and detunes the car. Simple concept.

[klipseracer]

Originally Posted by Clap135

A failsafe catches all this stuff. If you debree, you are dropping flow, if you dropping flow, the failsafe lets you know and detunes the car. Simple concept.

I think the problem wasn't a lack of flow so much as it was the gunk was disrupting the nozzle's atomization ability and caused irregular spray patterns that didn't sit well with the combustion chamber.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Please explain how your failsafe works and I'll tell you if your failsafe would have cought this.

I have an IAT gage right in front of me and the temps were dropping. Meth was working. It just wasn't working correctly.

You could spray a tiny bit of meth and you will still see IAT drop, the point Clap is making is the meth could be working, but you are not getting the proper flow. This is absolutely critical since you are in CA with 91 octane piss gas. I went through this whole reduced flow issue as well. The challenge you are faced with MR.5 is that GIAC does not have any integration with methanol injection. Since it doesn't, I would recommend getting something along the lines of the coolingmist CMGS or labonte IFS-30 with an IFG-30 gauge. When the debris starts accumulating, you will start flowing less and less, and eventually get to the point you will have to take action.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

IAT gauges arent failsafes.

Just cause your temperatures are lower then normal doesnt mean the engine is seeing enough methanol flow.

A real failsafe would have found this cause it would have found reduced flow.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by Clap135

A failsafe catches all this stuff. If you debree, you are dropping flow, if you dropping flow, the failsafe lets you know and detunes the car. Simple concept.

So, the failsafe would have let me know that flow was dropping?
I guess it would have been good to know before i brought my car to the dyno so that would have benefited me.

I've always thought of failsafe systems only protecting people if the pump actually stops working. Not if the flow drops.
What is the tolerance?

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

So, the failsafe would have let me know that flow was dropping?
I guess it would have been good to know before i brought my car to the dyno so that would have benefited me.

I've always thought of failsafe systems only protecting people if the pump actually stops working. Not if the flow drops.
What is the tolerance?

You can have the tolerances as tight as you want, as most failsafes measure flow.

A clogged nozzle, a clogged pump, a leaking line ETC will all reduce flow.

Themyst mentioned a good way to integrate it into the GIAC.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

IAT gauges arent failsafes.
Just cause your temperatures are lower then normal doesnt mean the engine is seeing enough methanol flow.

A real failsafe would have found this cause it would have found reduced flow.

I know the IAT gage isn't a failsafe.
I'm just saying that I notice when meth sprays and I see a drop of about 8-10 degrees.
I never thought of this problem as a reduction in flow as much as a gunk clogging surtain spots making this a squirt rather than a mist, but maybe it actually would show a decrease in flow.

[Mr. 5]

Originally Posted by JPSlick

You can have the tolerances as tight as you want, as most failsafes measure flow.

A clogged nozzle, a clogged pump, a leaking line ETC will all reduce flow.

Themyst mentioned a good way to integrate it into the GIAC.

Sounds good. I'll check into that.
As stated, never thought of failsafe as a method of reduction in flow.
I've only thought of it as a stopage of flow.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

Sounds good. I'll check into that.
As stated, never thought of failsafe as a method of reduction in flow.
I've only thought of it as a stopage of flow.

IFS-30 / IFG-30 sounds like a good solution for you GIAC + meth guys. Say you are expecting 700ml/min, and you see it slowly dropping to 600, 500 etc... you will know something is wrong. It isn't as proactive an approach like the Procede integration, but it is FAR better than assuming your meth is working by watching IAT drop.

[Jeff@TopGearSolutions]

Originally Posted by Mr. 5

I know the IAT gage isn't a failsafe.
I'm just saying that I notice when meth sprays and I see a drop of about 8-10 degrees.
I never thought of this problem as a reduction in flow as much as a gunk clogging surtain spots making this a squirt rather than a mist, but maybe it actually would show a decrease in flow.

It def would show a decrease in flow, the meth line is pressurized, any obstruction will slow down flow and will be shown on the failsafe.

Dont view my post as derogatory please, I'm just a little T'd off because there is a huge misconception on this forum that Intake air temperature readings are a good enough determination to find out if flow is good for their car.

The only real way to find out if methanol flow is good is ignition and obviously a flow sensor in conjunction.

There is a certain tune that currently only show IAT in their datalogging, and it annoys the crap out of me that it is preached that its a good way of determining meth flow. When its clearly not. Its a small piece of the puzzle to say the least.

Im just here to help convey that message and with your help it might teach people to cover themselves.

[themyst]

put it this way, JP, Clap, and myself have been through virtually every meth issue with various parts and tunes. It's an exercise in frustration sometimes, but SO worth it when it's running as intended!

[klipseracer]

the labonte failsafes integrate with the procede well and give an analog signal depicting flow rate which can be shown on a gauge. The tolerance can be set by the procede to revert to non-meth maps on what would be defined as insufficient flow.

[themyst]

Originally Posted by klipseracer

the labonte failsafes integrate with the procede well and give an analog signal depicting flow rate which can be shown on a gauge. The tolerance can be set by the procede to revert to non-meth maps on what would be defined as insufficient flow.

shh.. we purposely did not mention that to prevent yet another tuner war.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by themyst

IFS-30 / IFG-30 sounds like a good solution for you GIAC + meth guys. Say you are expecting 700ml/min, and you see it slowly dropping to 600, 500 etc... you will know something is wrong. It isn't as proactive an approach like the Procede integration, but it is FAR better than assuming your meth is working by watching IAT drop.

BMS' CAN Tool has extra analog inputs. They could set it up to trigger the GIAC map switch command if BMS and GIAC wanted to work together on it. Would give GIAC in dash boost gauges, a DPFIX, and code reading as well.

Mike

[themyst]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

BMS' CAN Tool has extra analog inputs. They could set it up to trigger the GIAC map switch command if BMS and GIAC wanted to work together on it. Would give GIAC in dash boost gauges, a DPFIX, and code reading as well.

Mike

We're talking about solutions available now, not months down the road; although that's another good idea if it ever comes to fruition.