Autocar: Britain's Best Driver's Car 2011

GoingTooFast · 10-13-2011, 06:43 AM

LeifW · 10-13-2011, 07:57 AM

I'm impressed that the 1M is even being compared to the Cayman R and the Lotus. Those are two very focussed mid-engined sports cars.

Leif W.

Sy546 · 10-13-2011, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeifW

I'm impressed that the 1M is even being compared to the Cayman R and the Lotus. Those are two very focussed mid-engined sports cars.

Leif W.

Agreed. Having driven the cayman r and evora s as well, I can say the Cayman R is the best handling car of the bunch. But to me the Evora S is a big let down at it's price. At $65k i would have bought the Evora S. But the 1M is just as fast or faster than the cayman r and evora s in the 1/4 and pretty damn close in the turns. Im willing to have 95% of the performance for 65% of the price.

Fundahl · 10-13-2011, 08:40 AM

Tires and camber plates and the 1M would be much more competative and fun on the track. Notice how they said it was fun to drive on the roads. Seems like BMW built a bit too much understeer in to make it safe.

Then you open up the engine.

GoingTooFast · 10-13-2011, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeifW

I'm impressed that the 1M is even being compared to the Cayman R and the Lotus. Those are two very focussed mid-engined sports cars.

The same could have been said about the Aston Martin V8 Vantage S and the Porsche 911 GT3 RS and yet the less track-oriented Aston Martin comes ahead of the 911. Let alone the Caterham Seven Supersport.

The key factor was:

Quote:

The short answer is 'confidence', or lack thereof. Year after year the car that wins this contest does so not because it is necessarily the fastest or the grippiest, or the one that does the biggest skids. It is the car that, before it does anything else, provides the driver with the confidence to wring its neck. If then it also turns out to have a surplus of all the more easily measured or observable talents, it's provide the driver with that crucial confidence.

But, even more important, they seem to confirm Randy Pobst's opinion:

Quote:

The problem with the 1M at Rockingham was that if it was driven hard it understeered pretty much everywhere, hence it set a lap time that was 1.5 sec adrift of the Porsche and fully 2.5sec slower than the Lotus. It also felt strangely top heavy during the key moments on turn-in, which meant it couldn't be thrown around in the manner in which we'd expected.

What's going on?! I thought the 1M was very tossable... am I missing something?!

EmmDrei · 10-13-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fundahl

Seems like BMW built a bit too much understeer in to make it safe.

No. If you read the test carefully, then you'll know where the problem is. They drove the 1M in MDM max and never turned the DSC off completely. Otherwise they wouldn't complain about flashing DSC lights. And with DSC on, even in MDM, you're not running the car at 100% and... the driving aid induces understeer, especially if you have a driver that is not being absolutely precise and clean when turning in. It doesn't make much sense to compare cars without stability systems with cars with stability systems. For the simple reason that these systems are there to keep the driver from coming too close to the edge.

Fundahl · 10-13-2011, 09:24 AM

I was under the impression that they had turned all systems off at least once.... if not then it's not really an honest evaluation.

All is well. It's not like this has a negative influence on my opinion of the car.

I autocross a lot, camber plates and tires will be among my first mods, along with CP-E catless down-pipes and N55 mid-pipes. (OEM Catless)

Sy546 · 10-13-2011, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

. It doesn't make much sense to compare cars without stability systems with cars with stability systems. .

i thought the cayman r and evora s have stability systems.

Moo · 10-13-2011, 09:34 AM

This will make a few M3 owners happy

EmmDrei · 10-13-2011, 09:37 AM

Sorry for the OT! @Fundahl: Could you explain to me what you (US) guys are refering to, when you talk about "autocross"? Autocross for a european is simply like motocross for cars. I would assume you guys are refering to what we would call "slalom" (driving a set course that basically consists of cones). I always ask myself that, when I read references to it.

BTT: @S.Hasan: Afaik they do not. I may be wrong though, I have not personally driven either. Just going by what I thought I have read in car mags. If they do, I stand corrected.

@Moo: Sure? And where exactly can you find the M3 in that list at all?

b33g33 · 10-13-2011, 09:39 AM

Oh noes!!!!!!!!

My $45k car is being beaten by $70k+ cars on a track while being driven by guys who are scared to turn the nannies off!

GoingTooFast · 10-13-2011, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EmmDrei

No. If you read the test carefully, then you'll know where the problem is. They drove the 1M in MDM max and never turned the DSC off completely. Otherwise they wouldn't complain about flashing DSC lights. And with DSC on, even in MDM, you're not running the car at 100% and... the driving aid induces understeer, especially if you have a driver that is not being absolutely precise and clean when turning in.

Thus, that means I was right about Randy Pobst:

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

It's not his fault not knowing that, unlike the M3, the M-button on the steering wheel is not programmable and that besides getting you a sharper throttle response mapping it does nothing else. He doesn't know that the M Dynamic Mode (aka MDM) cannot be programmed to be activated or the DSC completely deactivate by the same M button. So, he only pressed the M button on the steering wheel and drove the car with the DSC fully ON, hence the awful understeer and low power!

Now seriously ... I think they kept the DSC on ONLY when the track was wet:

Quote:

And when it rained it displayed a chronic lack of traction - to the extent that even in fourth gear the DSC ligjt would flash on the main straight if full throttle was applied.

All their lap times were set in the dry and by the same driver, despite the fact that they were also experimenting with the MDM mode:

Quote:

(...) while Richard Bremmer reckoned the 1M had "too much power for too little chassis" on the circuit, although he did note that the handling
"felt quite fluent in the intermediate DSC setting".

Which is not saying that they didn't run the 1M with the DSC completely OFF... or, do you think so?!

GoingTooFast · 10-13-2011, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b33g33

Oh noes!!!!!!!!

My $45k car is being beaten by $70k+ cars on a track while being driven by guys who are scared to turn the nannies off!

What is the price of a Caterham Seven Supersport?

Again...

Quote:

The short answer is 'confidence', or lack thereof. Year after year the car that wins this contest does so not because it is necessarily the fastest or the grippiest, or the one that does the biggest skids. It is the car that, before it does anything else, provides the driver with the confidence to wring its neck. If then it also turns out to have a surplus of all the more easily measured or observable talents, it's provide the driver with that crucial confidence.

Mahlzeit · 10-13-2011, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moo

This will make a few M3 owners happy

Because the M3 isn't in the test?

b33g33 · 10-13-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoingTooFast

What is the price of a Caterham Seven Supersport?

Again...

Dude, seriously? You're comparing a completely stripped out track car from the 60's (not available to US buyers) to the 1M?

b33g33 · 10-13-2011, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mahlzeit

Because the M3 isn't in the test?

Oh Snap

bdaddylo · 10-13-2011, 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.hasan546

i thought the cayman r and evora s have stability systems.

If you're asking this means you really didn't drive (figuratively) these cars. I'm almost a 100% sure the Boxter Spyder and Cayman R do not come with PSM.

JasonCSU · 10-13-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b33g33

Dude, seriously? You're comparing a completely stripped out track car from the 60's (not available to US buyers) to the 1M?

You can get Caterham cars in the US.

http://www.uscaterham.com/

GoingTooFast · 10-13-2011, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b33g33

Dude, seriously? You're comparing a completely stripped out track car from the 60's (not available to US buyers) to the 1M?

Not me... Autocar is!

...

7th Renault Mégane 265 Trophy (pretty 21st century too me and cheaper than the BMW)
8th BMW 1M

...

JasonCSU · 10-13-2011, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdaddylo

If you're asking this means you really didn't drive (figuratively) these cars. I'm almost a 100% sure the Boxter Spyder and Cayman R do not come with PSM.

I believe the NHTSA is requiring all new cars to have some sort of stability management beginning in 2012.

Pete_vB · 10-13-2011, 10:47 AM

This isn't too surprising- it would only be wishful thinking to expect the practical, four seat, cheaper 1M to compete dynamically with a Cayman R.

Multiple testers have now mentioned understeer at the track, which is also not unexpected. The 1M was always going to have issues putting power down given the light rear end and huge torque, and that equates to oversteer on power. To counter that you must dial in more understeer off power, no other choice.

If you're tracking your car realize it will respond very well to very sticky tires, which will help put power down better and allow a more neutral setup. If you're not tracking I wouldn't worry about it much- once again they liked the on-road balance, where you take a slow-in, fast out attitude. I'd get a set of Pilot Super Sports for the road and call it a day.

ozinaldo · 10-13-2011, 11:08 AM

Pete_vB, I could not agree more. I also assume that almost all the important "weaknesses" of 1M which are ride stiffness-jerkiness (for some), tire noise, wet traction and in general the overall capacity of the car's chassis to cope with extra levels of torque can be diminished to a much smoother level just by doing the easiest and most effective tuning of all, changing the tires. I am also going to install Michelin Pilot SS the moment they have the rears available (in Europe they are available but not yet in Americas).

By the way, Boxster Spyder and Cayman R come with PSM, at least in Germany/Europe.

10-13-2011, 06:43 AM	#1
GoingTooFast Banned 89 Rep 1,247 Posts Drives: fat cars are still boats Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: compensating a fat car with horsepower is like giving an alcoholic cocaine to sober him up. iTrader: (0)	Autocar: Britain's Best Driver's Car 2011 - Randy Pobst may be right after all!
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10-13-2011, 07:57 AM	#2
LeifW Captain 47 Rep 691 Posts Drives: 1M AW Join Date: May 2007 Location: CT, USA iTrader: (0)	I'm impressed that the 1M is even being compared to the Cayman R and the Lotus. Those are two very focussed mid-engined sports cars. Leif W.
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10-13-2011, 08:40 AM	#4
Fundahl Captain 8 Rep 704 Posts Drives: VO 1M, 300zx TT Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Corpus Christi, Texas iTrader: (0)	Tires and camber plates and the 1M would be much more competative and fun on the track. Notice how they said it was fun to drive on the roads. Seems like BMW built a bit too much understeer in to make it safe. Then you open up the engine.
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10-13-2011, 09:24 AM	#7
Fundahl Captain 8 Rep 704 Posts Drives: VO 1M, 300zx TT Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Corpus Christi, Texas iTrader: (0)	I was under the impression that they had turned all systems off at least once.... if not then it's not really an honest evaluation. All is well. It's not like this has a negative influence on my opinion of the car. I autocross a lot, camber plates and tires will be among my first mods, along with CP-E catless down-pipes and N55 mid-pipes. (OEM Catless)
	Appreciate 0

10-13-2011, 09:34 AM	#9
Moo Gold Member 161 Rep 512 Posts Drives: PSYWGN Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Studio 69 iTrader: (0)	This will make a few M3 owners happy
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10-13-2011, 09:37 AM	#10
EmmDrei Lieutenant 26 Rep 401 Posts Drives: 2011 Saphire Black 1M Coupé Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: 300km to the Nordschleife iTrader: (0)	Sorry for the OT! @Fundahl: Could you explain to me what you (US) guys are refering to, when you talk about "autocross"? Autocross for a european is simply like motocross for cars. I would assume you guys are refering to what we would call "slalom" (driving a set course that basically consists of cones). I always ask myself that, when I read references to it. BTT: @S.Hasan: Afaik they do not. I may be wrong though, I have not personally driven either. Just going by what I thought I have read in car mags. If they do, I stand corrected. @Moo: Sure? And where exactly can you find the M3 in that list at all? __________________ The best piece of road - worldwide.
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10-13-2011, 09:39 AM	#11
b33g33 Give '///M' Hell! 125 Rep 1,325 Posts Drives: Einser Rex Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Atlanta, GA iTrader: (0)	Oh noes!!!!!!!! My $45k car is being beaten by $70k+ cars on a track while being driven by guys who are scared to turn the nannies off! __________________ The 1 series M is the most badass, coolest, sickest BMW to debut since the 1988 M3. The E30 M3 finally has a successor. Please welcome the stupidly fast, wickedly tempered, awkwardly named, possibly perfect little son of a benchmark - Automobile Magazine, August 2011
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10-13-2011, 10:47 AM	#21
Pete_vB Captain 118 Rep 898 Posts Drives: '69 GT3, GT4, 1M, 912 Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: SF Bay Area, Shenzhen, Oman iTrader: (0)	This isn't too surprising- it would only be wishful thinking to expect the practical, four seat, cheaper 1M to compete dynamically with a Cayman R. Multiple testers have now mentioned understeer at the track, which is also not unexpected. The 1M was always going to have issues putting power down given the light rear end and huge torque, and that equates to oversteer on power. To counter that you must dial in more understeer off power, no other choice. If you're tracking your car realize it will respond very well to very sticky tires, which will help put power down better and allow a more neutral setup. If you're not tracking I wouldn't worry about it much- once again they liked the on-road balance, where you take a slow-in, fast out attitude. I'd get a set of Pilot Super Sports for the road and call it a day. __________________ 1M, GT4, 1969 Porsche 911 w/ 997 GT3 Cup Motor (435hp & 2,100 lbs)
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10-13-2011, 11:08 AM	#22
ozinaldo Brigadier General 115 Rep 3,070 Posts Drives: 1M Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Lisbon, Portugal iTrader: (0)	Pete_vB, I could not agree more. I also assume that almost all the important "weaknesses" of 1M which are ride stiffness-jerkiness (for some), tire noise, wet traction and in general the overall capacity of the car's chassis to cope with extra levels of torque can be diminished to a much smoother level just by doing the easiest and most effective tuning of all, changing the tires. I am also going to install Michelin Pilot SS the moment they have the rears available (in Europe they are available but not yet in Americas). By the way, Boxster Spyder and Cayman R come with PSM, at least in Germany/Europe.
	Appreciate 0