[Palmnuts]

I'm having my first experience of winter tyres and have got to say, I'm not all that impressed so just wanted to see what you lot think.

We fitted a set of (non run-flat) Vredestein Wintrak Extremes to the Mini a few weeks ago and I was initially very disappointed with the steering feel and general straight line stability. I gave the tyres the benefit of the doubt to give them time to bed in and the temps to fall to the optimum level (i.e. NOT double figures!).

So this morning I head off down the M1 to the big smoke, the temp is 1-2 degrees and I'm doing about oooh....100km/h The car is ever so slightly but very annoyingly moving around a lot and requiring constant adjustment to keep it going straight.

On the way home, with slightly warmer temps (3-4 degrees) and keeping up with the flow at about 115km/h, the car is feeling quite uncomfortable to drive. I know I might have got used to the excellence of the Jaaaaag, but the Mini never felt like this before

So, is this typical of what winter tyres feel like or is it a trait of having moved away from run-flats (or combination of both)? It really has spoiled the handling of the car although I have to say, the grip is much better in cold, damp conditions....the kind when you expect to get wheelspin and slippage and it's a nice surprise when it just doesn't happen.

It seems the tyres giveth with one hand and taketh with the other

[Dannyrado]

I have goodyear ultragrip 7's on the golf, and i love them. I actually get better MPG, and the grip is astonishing (i know i shouldn't tempt fate, but when your travelling at 40mph in the snowed up fast lane, everyone else queing in the slow lane, and you really are wondering why they are all going so slowly, because you feel there's nothing wrong...)

I do know that a mate had some vredestiens fitted a few years ago, hated them for the first 1k miles, the raved about them to anyone that would listen. Something to do with the grease to them out of the mould's maybe??

I have no experience of coming from run-crap versions though i'm afraid.

+ I've never had any squirming, are the pressures correct??

[briers]

My wintracs are the same

They feel squishy and the precision on turn in and corner confidence is gone. My biggest problem is lack of traction. The soft compound does make it feel less planted but in reality it's still able to take some abuse on a bone dry day. After a couple of months last year I couldn't wait to get back to my 230 wheels. This year I left it until snow was forecast until I put the winter set on, then it didn't bloody snow.

On a positive note the squishy tread works wonders in the snow and ice.

[davyk31]

Are you running the same tyre size and profile for both the summers and winters?

They will be more squishy than summer runflats for sure but they need to be to work. As you say there is give and take.

[briers]

Im not, i went smaller on winters to the standard 17" size. After witnessing how poor the car is at even at a hint of snow on 19" summer rfts i decided to give myself the best possible chance and go for a thinner tire as i was skeptical of winters at the time.

I can now say that i regret going smaller, they look pretty crap and the lack of traction is really annoying. They got me through everything without drama so now I'm buying a second set of 230's and getting some 19" winters for them.

[davyk31]

If you went to 17s from 19s you will have a lot less sidewall therefore you will for sure feel things more squishy, add in the fact that you went from summers perhaps runflats to winter standards and there are lots of factors there that will soften and dull the responses. However you ought to be able to keep moving in winter which is the main aim.

Know what you mean about 17s looking small, I went from 19" 230 to 17" last year and they look really small. Reckon 18" is the best compromise for winter use.

[rsmallwo]

I've gone to 17's and they don't look great but just think, if you do loose the car on some ice and start to slide into the curb you won't need to worry as much as you aren't damaging your pristine 19's

[mowflow]

Just don't try to go out anytime around Christmas day. It's going to be shorts and t-shirt weather for Christmas with the temp hitting double figures again.

[davyk31]

And then falling like a stone for the first two weeks of January.

[chris_s1]

Winter tyres have deeper tread blocks with more gaps in. They are specifically designed this way, as this is how grip in snowy conditions is generated. The only thing that sticks to snow is more snow. The tread is designed to capture an amount of snow in between the blocks.
The very nature of the tread blocks required for winter tyres means they are more flexible and that gives the feelings as you described, the other side effect is higher wear rate - tread block movement = heat generated.

So in summary, you have to loose something to gain something - otherwise we would be using winter tyres all the time!

[Anneka @ Sytner]

Originally Posted by Palmnuts

I'm having my first experience of winter tyres and have got to say, I'm not all that impressed so just wanted to see what you lot think.

We fitted a set of (non run-flat) Vredestein Wintrak Extremes to the Mini a few weeks ago and I was initially very disappointed with the steering feel and general straight line stability. I gave the tyres the benefit of the doubt to give them time to bed in and the temps to fall to the optimum level (i.e. NOT double figures!).

So this morning I head off down the M1 to the big smoke, the temp is 1-2 degrees and I'm doing about oooh....100km/h The car is ever so slightly but very annoyingly moving around a lot and requiring constant adjustment to keep it going straight.

On the way home, with slightly warmer temps (3-4 degrees) and keeping up with the flow at about 115km/h, the car is feeling quite uncomfortable to drive. I know I might have got used to the excellence of the Jaaaaag, but the Mini never felt like this before

So, is this typical of what winter tyres feel like or is it a trait of having moved away from run-flats (or combination of both)? It really has spoiled the handling of the car although I have to say, the grip is much better in cold, damp conditions....the kind when you expect to get wheelspin and slippage and it's a nice surprise when it just doesn't happen.

It seems the tyres giveth with one hand and taketh with the other

Both my summer and winter tyres are non-runflat. The steering in my MINI feels lighter than it did on my summer wheels, I also find I'm more prone to wheel spin when setting off in the wet (unexpected, but possibly becuase they're not bedded in well yet). I haven't experienced any sway at all.
Have you re-checked the tyre pressures since having them fitted? (Just thinking it could be worthwhile?)

[briers]

Originally Posted by chris_s1

Winter tyres have deeper tread blocks with more gaps in. They are specifically designed this way, as this is how grip in snowy conditions is generated. The only thing that sticks to snow is more snow. The tread is designed to capture an amount of snow in between the blocks.
The very nature of the tread blocks required for winter tyres means they are more flexible and that gives the feelings as you described, the other side effect is higher wear rate - tread block movement = heat generated.

So in summary, you have to loose something to gain something - otherwise we would be using winter tyres all the time!

Talk about wear rate

I decided doing some donuts on the car park after work would be a good idea. It's only when my mate piped up after how it sounded like the tyres were really digging right down to the tarmac did i realise i'd scrubbed off a good few mm.

I thought it would almost float on the snow like his fat tyre'd 997, even with it's heavy arse.

The bonus this year is because of the square setup those part worn tyres at around 5mm will go on the front, leaving deeper tread on the drive wheels.

[ALF_E90]

There seem to be a lot of strong pro and anti-winter tyre feelings this year. Here are a few of my experiences, trying to be as balanced as possible and not to get too "I've paid for them so I'll defend them".

Last year when I went from an 18" staggered RFT setup to all square 17" non-RFT winters (Nokian WRG2) It was already very cold and I noticed no negatives at all - just a lot more grip, much better ride, and a better handling balance than the understeer the staggered setup seemed to promote. I ran the winters for around 8k miles and the rears lost about 1.5mm, the fronts nothing measurable. I was trying to look after them but the last month or so I ran then included a lot of wamr dry days with temps in the mid teens and they felt perfectly safe - that included quite a bit of sporty driving in that last month and while they didn't feel as precise as summers there was plenty of grip and predictability. I did find I needed to drive in DCT mode whenever pressing on as the DSC/TC seemed a bit keen with the winters on. And occasionally it would drop out of a cruise with a funny yellow speedo warning symbol, which again I think was the softer rubber upsetting the DSC.

This winter I had a direct comparison as I had moved to an all-square 17" non-RFT setup for summer (since I preferred the handling/ride/tyre cost so much) to winters of the same size (225/45/17). I stuck last years rears on the front - so running 6.5mm tread front, 8mm rear.

The first thing I noticed was much improved low speed/standing start traction. However, I don't think I would have noticed this if I had not left the change so late - it was around 2 degrees and I had noticed a sudden major lack of grip from the summers when it dropped, days before they felt mighty. So compare like with like. When it is cold and damp, there is less grip, full stop.

I also noticed much reduced steering feel this year with the winters. The steering now feels more like my 156GTA or A4 - very light, and needs a light grip to detect much feel. After a week or so I had re calibrated and don't notice this now. There is also a slight sense of wandering with the winters - a feeling of less steering precision - I don't notice this at all on the motorway like some have, but mostly on windy constant-speed roads. You also need to wind on a bit more lock when cornering hard.

Braking feels more secure, however, and like I said traction is much stronger on anything from slightly damp onwards, particularly from low speeds. Cornering in all conditions is secure and predictable. Long journey comfort and economy is identical (I drive up to 1k miles a week so I'd notice...).

And of course it barely needs adding that snow/ice performance is in another dimension. I have driven various summer-tyres cars in snow - FWD, RWD, and 4WD - and though 4WD can get you moving, I was always terrified by the lack of braking and cornering grip. With the winters I can brake hard on packed snow/ice and really feel like I am stopping quickly - not that almost accelerative feeling when on summers. I can pull away in snow on steep inclines, and security when driving at say 40mph on a totally snow-packed road is amazing. None of my summer tyre equipped cars bar the full-time 4WD one could get out of my close on snow due to a small incline, now I can choose the hilliest route out just for fun. No comparison.

Overall, for me, the winter tyre thing works. £250 bought a set of genuine BMW 7-spoke alloys identical to my summers, just with the odd scuff (winter=who cares?). I have a double garage and I used to have 16 or 20 wheels/tyres in there when I was racing Caterhams so the better half is not bothered about one set (amongst the piles of mountain bikes!) now. And I live somewhere that - despite being in a big housing estate - is never gritted and is hilly so in snow this is the difference between getting out and not getting out. I also drive 30k+ p.a. for work and could be anywhere in the country, plus will lose money if I can't get out. The slight loss of steering feel is more than offset by the better grip, and the loss of that panic when I am 200 miles from home and it starts to dump down with snow, or the annoyance of day after day of being stuck here when it has snowed. The winters do seem to wear less than the summers in winter, so I'm a happy bunny overall, as indeed we are with the Quatrac 3 all seasons on my wife's (slow) Golf - in all weathers.

My advice would be: don't go for tiny narrow winters on 16" steelies unless you live in a really cold area, go for a similar size to what you prefer for summers (which happens to be narrow in my case but that's my tastes...). Don't buy a budget winter tyre and expect it to perform like a great all-rounder alongside your premium summers (a budget winter will be in another league to a summer in snow/ice but may be miserable most of the winter). And choose a winter tyre that tests well for dry and wet road performance and dry/wet road feel. Winter performance on a full-winter tyre can be taken as a given for the occasional full-snow/ice use we are likely to put them to in the UK, most of he time we will be driving on dry/damp/wet roads.

Oh, and most importantly of all, driving to the conditions and to your comfort/skill levels is more important in winter than any other time. We can argue endlessly about tyre type (well, I like to see it as a debate, but some make it an argument) but the simple fact is: there is less grip out there, full stop. When the temperature really drops most minor or shaded roads will be damp and possibly icy all day, there is mud everywhere, it is dark a lot - take care out there!

[gIzzE]

I went with Michelin Pilot Alpins this year, not he best performing winter tyre out there but rated as one of the more performance rated winters. I thought it a good compromise for the UK.

[pjs]

I've put winters on the Merc, going from a staggered 18" set(225 + 255) up to a Merc supplied 17" 225/45 set - Dunlop Wintersport 3D's. Now I feel a bit of a dick because I'm reading about what a mild xmas we are going to have. And they look like castors, amazing what difference an inch makes.

Anyway, in terms of feel, they are entirely predictable. Ride is slightly better, handling only slightly less precise, less road noise. Early days yet as only got 500 miles on them, but at 90 -100 on Mway there is no noticeable difference, feels entirely planted.

Just want it to fooking snow now

[F31-340i]

Interesting thoughts.

I'll only add:

They come into their own in snow, especially fresh deep snow. This is really what they are all about.

I've not even fitted mine yet despite some low temps - not due to be in the Pyrenees until next week so it's a weekend job for me.

It's about time the snow chuffing arrived - there's snowboarding to be done!

[Palmnuts]

Mmmmmm....it does seem the general opinion is more positive that mine. Some interesting feedback and I of course will be very gratefully when (if?) the snow arrives as they will of course come into their own then.

I probably am expecting too much for it to retain the precision as when fitted with summer tyres but I'm just a bit shocked by the lack of straight line stability and constant correction needed (I will recheck the pressures as Anneka mentioned just in case).

[magic77]

I fitted mine 2 weeks ago as had no choice summers rears where on legal limit. Went from the 17" M sport summer non runflat to winter non runflat.

While the tyres are just bedding in after about 400 miles on the first few days of sub zero and around zero temps i could see difference. We live on top a hill and getting even out of the driveway as you ahve to go up first is a pain and you can slide around at the top. With the winters (Falken Eurowinters) I could straight away feel more grip especially after the initial couple of hundred miles.

IMO a good plan but I think if you do go for it and are swapping from 19" down to 17" it will feel very much different so comparing is harder. For me as my 17" are staying as winter and new set of BBS 18" are ready for summer I could do a more direct compare.

[jonl1983]

Personally I think everyone has been a bit too eager to get them fitted after the winter we had last year.

It was 13c yesterday when I was driving back from Brizzle, dread to think how the car would have driven on winters in that temp. Plus the forecast is set to stay mild for a little while.

Given how mild the temps are at the mo all the compound will be scrubbed down to a few mm if and when the white stuff appears!

Long range forecasts don't seem to show much in the way of a deep long freeze or snow

[kaishang]

Like I said on other threads... you buy winter tyres as an insurance policy because summer tyres are useless on ice/snow. Unless there is ice/snow, even if the temp is around zero, then the difference between winter and summer tyres is marginal.

[ALF_E90]

That is not true, the difference is highly significant from around 3 or 4 degrees and lower.

Also, the "dread to think what they would have been like at 13 degrees" comments are the results of other scaremongering - I drove plenty of challenging driver's roads briskly on mine in 17 degrees and bright sunshine last March and while summers would have been better, the winters were absolutely fine. They didn't melt, give no grip, or whatever. They just felt fine. One time on a dry 16 degrees day I even pulled a genuine "he couldn't see which way I had gone" on a Clio 172 cup driven by a young lad who got upset when I overtook him and tried to tailgate me. I doubt he was on winters...

[fastloop]

Originally Posted by Palmnuts

So this morning I head off down the M1 to the big smoke, the temp is 1-2 degrees and I'm doing about oooh....100km/h The car is ever so slightly but very annoyingly moving around a lot and requiring constant adjustment to keep it going straight.

On the way home, with slightly warmer temps (3-4 degrees) and keeping up with the flow at about 115km/h, the car is feeling quite uncomfortable to drive. I know I might have got used to the excellence of the Jaaaaag, but the Mini never felt like this before

Sounds like you are running too high pressure. I did this once on my Wintrac's and they are quite unstable at speed if over inflated. Try dropping the pressure a few PSI's. You also need to wear off the top layer before they really start to grip. Mine feel really nice now they have 3-4000 miles on them.
In general winter tyres will always feel a lot more vague in the steering as the thread flexes more and gives you less feedback. So don't expect winter tyres to give you the same feel as summer tyres. However throw in some ice, snow or heavy rain and they will make a big difference.