[335I talian Stallion NJ]

Hey everyone... I am getting a case of mod fever but my conscience is keeping me in control secondary to the impact these will have on my warranty. My question is how do all of you deal with the fact that your warranty might be shot on these cars if they happen to find out about procede or notice your intake... or how about the exhaust or suspension? There are so many things I would like to do but voiding the warranty on a very expensive auto is not one. Opinions are greatly appreciated!!

[HyperM3]

This is something that comes up all the time. If you search for it you will find a bajillion threads on this.

Basically it comes down to this: A manufacturer cannot void a warranty just because you have an aftermarket product on your car. If something happens to your car that you need warranty work on, they can only deny the warranty if they can provide details how that aftermarket product directly affected the problem. The only time Ive seen a dealer directly call the warranty shot is if you change any internals: IE cams, head, block.

That being said, Ive never had any warranty stuff denied and Ive always modified my cars.

[DasBlitz]

Talk to your dealer. See how they feel about certain mods. If you are worried or they straight out tell you dont do anything. Then dont.

I am only doing exterior mods shortly. Mainly because I don't own a 335. Plus I would like to save up for the almighty M3. So why waste money now since for sure I won't need to mod an M3.

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by DasBlitz

So why waste money now since for sure I won't need to mod an M3.

LOL@that. Theres ALWAYS a need to mod something. There would be no need for RUF's and AWE's of the world if the Porsche turbo was good enough as is.

No matter how good something is, theres always room for improvement. Its a good thing Im not a cosmetic surgeon.

[ruff]

Originally Posted by DasBlitz

Plus I would like to save up for the almighty M3. So why waste money now since for sure I won't need to mod an M3.

If you are going to track your new M3 and stay with P cars, you may want to change the brakes, since the M3 is only going to have single pistons. P cars have 4 pistons per caliper.

[Carnage]

It's really a simple dilemma to resolve, if you don't want to have any worries then don't mod. If you do mod, then go into it prepared to deal with the consequences if something goes wrong. Yes, a manufacturer cannot void a warranty just because you have an aftermarket product on your car. But if they decide to not fix something under warranty because they say the mod caused it, the responsibility becomes yours to fight them to prove it didn't.

[canucklion]

we should sticky this response

Originally Posted by matsarge

It's really a simple dilemma to resolve, if you don't want to have any worries then don't mod. If you do mod, then go into it prepared to deal with the consequences if something goes wrong. Yes, a manufacturer cannot void a warranty just because you have an aftermarket product on your car. But if they decide to not fix something under warranty because they say the mod caused it, the responsibility becomes yours to fight them to prove it didn't.

[e92man]

Originally Posted by matsarge

It's really a simple dilemma to resolve, if you don't want to have any worries then don't mod. If you do mod, then go into it prepared to deal with the consequences if something goes wrong. Yes, a manufacturer cannot void a warranty just because you have an aftermarket product on your car. But if they decide to not fix something under warranty because they say the mod caused it, the responsibility becomes yours to fight them to prove it didn't.

exactly right. if u get a procede and the dealer blames a problem on it hold your ground. if its truely a the dealer trying to scam you than dont back down and they will give in. BE CAREFUL WHO YOUR SALES MAN IS. IT CAN MAKE ALL THE DIFFERENCE.

[Carnage]

Originally Posted by canucklion

we should sticky this response

I have it copied and pasted to my "most needed responses" word document so it will always be ready.

[Chi-town330]

In the many threads that this has been discussed, a commonly mentioned approach is merely to remove the mod and put the stock part(s) back on before taking back to the dealership. Many folks happily said this is their plan.

It's called fraud.

And I'm not sure if I would assume the BMW techs are all morons, either.

As for people saying BMW has to "prove" that the mod caused the problem before they can deny a claim, all I can say is wake up, don't be naive, and look up the word "LEVERAGE" in the dictionary. They have it, not us.

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by Chi-town330

As for people saying BMW has to "prove" that the mod caused the problem before they can deny a claim, all I can say is wake up, don't be naive, and look up the word "LEVERAGE" in the dictionary. They have it, not us.

As for those who never heard of it: Magnusson Moss Act.

"Under Magnusson-Moss Act a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before they can deny warranty coverage. If they cannot prove such claim-or offer an explanation- it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission (202.326.3128) administers the Magnusson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law."

Look it up.

[DCJAX]

IMO, estimate the possible cost of losing your warrant (perhaps the cost of extended warranties could be used to provide a "value" on the regular warranty) then compare that to the benefit you get from modding your vehicle. The value of the warranty might be a little understated if you are talking about the voiding issue, as if it is voided it's no doubt due to a major repair.

Soooo, Tuning = $1500 let's say
Voided warranty = $2,000-$10,000??
Risk of voided warranty = 5%?-xx%? (depending on how many mods and how careful you are)

Benefit of adding XXhp to your car. (depends on you)

Originally Posted by HyperM3

As for those who never heard of it: Magnusson Moss Act.

"Under Magnusson-Moss Act a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before they can deny warranty coverage. If they cannot prove such claim-or offer an explanation- it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission (202.326.3128) administers the Magnusson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law."

Look it up.

You will have to take them to court to force them to "prove" the aftermarket equipment damaged the item. The burden will be on the consumer to seek redress in that case. On your court day the dealer/manu. will bring in a technical witness that will say "Yes, I believe adding that 100hp via programming to have been the primary cause of the clutch failure", under oath. The consumer will only have to show that the "proof" is wrong, that might not be an easy task.

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by DCJAX

You will have to take them to court to force them to "prove" the aftermarket equipment damaged the item. The burden will be on the consumer to seek redress in that case. On your court day the dealer/manu. will bring in a technical witness that will say "Yes, I believe adding that 100hp via programming to have been the primary cause of the clutch failure", under oath. The consumer will only have to show that the "proof" is wrong, that might not be an easy task.

I see where youre coming from. However, not to be argumentative, but using your exact scenario, I could bring up the fact that the clutch used in my car is the same one used in the 200HP more M5/M6. Therefore, the 100hp Im adding should be well within the threshold of component stress engineered from the factory.

(purely for hypothetical purposes, not an exact representation)

[ganeil]

This response was originally posted here.

It is the best explanation regarding this issue I have seen in the threads on this subject.

I am not a member of your forum and I do not drive a BMW. My son in law says he has been reading this website for a while and thought I may have some insight into the ongoing discussions on warranty law and modifications. A little bit about myself; I was a staffer on Senate Commerce Committee after law school in the mid-70's when the Magnuson-Moss Act was passed and then spent a career as a counsel with the Federal Trade Commission before dedicating my life to improving my golf game. While most of my experience with this issue concerned home warranties and not automobiles, I believe it is still applicable.

I have read through this string of comments, as well as the other related string and after getting past an amazing amount of juvenile writing I would have to say the both "ganeil" and "ATG" are partially correct. "ATG" has done a fine job of briefly explaining the legal theory around this issue but he falls short when relating how this theory translates into the real world. "Ganeil" has done just the opposite, he is correct on the real world implementation of the law but his discussion of the legal theory leaves much to be desired. I will not bore you with a discussion of the various legal theories that come to play but confine myself to how these cases ordinarily resolve in the real world.

The bottom line in most of these cases is if you substantially alter the operation of your car and the manufacturer chooses to deny warranty claims based on that alteration, it will cost you more money to prevail than the cost of the repair or possibly of the car itself. Now this is not to say that the manufacturer can make bizarre associations between fuel pumps and tires or radios and brakes, but if there is a logical and reasonable connection between the modification you made and the required repair, the onus will fall on you to rebut the manufacturer's claims and show how your modification did not cause the damage. This often would require the testimony of outside experts and a fair amount of legal discovery which will cost you large sums of money.

The last caveat I will give you concerns deception. DON'T DO IT! Nothing will turn a judge or, more likely, a mediator against you than attempting to deceive him or the manufacturer by denying what you have done. I would not want to be representing someone who denied having modified his car and then be presented with made public pronouncements (on a website!) by my client about how he was awaiting the part to arrive.

Just my two cents. Enjoy your cars.

- JW

[Carnage]

Nice post ganeil.

"The bottom line in most of these cases is if you substantially alter the operation of your car and the manufacturer chooses to deny warranty claims based on that alteration, it will cost you more money to prevail than the cost of the repair or possibly of the car itself. Now this is not to say that the manufacturer can make bizarre associations between fuel pumps and tires or radios and brakes, but if there is a logical and reasonable connection between the modification you made and the required repair, the onus will fall on you to rebut the manufacturer's claims and show how your modification did not cause the damage. This often would require the testimony of outside experts and a fair amount of legal discovery which will cost you large sums of money."....

For anyone wanting to mod, simply read the above paragraph. If after reading said paragraph you still wish to mod, then just be prepared for the worst and hope it never comes.

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by HyperM3

As for those who never heard of it: Magnusson Moss Act.

"Under Magnusson-Moss Act a dealer must prove, not just vocalize, that aftermarket equipment caused the need for repairs before they can deny warranty coverage. If they cannot prove such claim-or offer an explanation- it is your legal right to demand compliance with the warranty. The Federal Trade Commission (202.326.3128) administers the Magnusson-Moss Act and monitors compliance with warranty law."

Look it up.

Yes, I am aware of this Act. I am also aware of many laws in this country that supposedly protect us from corp actions yet are not simple to actually act upon.

So I don't know if I believe it is that easy. From what I have heard has happened in these instances, dealers can provide their explanation for why they deny coverage, in writing, which contains their "proof". And then the car owner is standing there with a broken car and a piece of paper.

i.e., a court of law or other governing body does not need to be convened to determine if their proof is credible to deny coverage , but rather the onus is vice versa - the car owner must convene a court or governing body to challenge it.

Is this not true?

EDIT: after I posted this, I saw DCJAX said something very similar, and saw Ganeil's very useful /credible repost.

[HyperM3]

This is all silly talk over and over again. We can give our sides as much as we want. However it comes down to this:

Ive never seen a documented case where Exhaust, Intake, or other products created any problems needing warranty work. Sure if you put in an aftermarket head unit and it blows the stock speakers then its your fault and the replacement speakers are not under warranty anymore.

By putting the PROcede, or any ECU enhancement, on my car, I have faith that nothing will happen to my engine. If one of my doors starts rattling, theres no way the dealer can blame it on my PROcede and void my warranty.

For all the people worrying about modding your cars and voiding warranty, show me ONE post on any forum where someone was denied warranty directly related to something causing a malfunction. Do not include incorrect installation either cus that doesnt count.

Theres more worry than fact in all these threads over and over again. Ive been modding my cars for almost 20 yrs and all the things Ive had warrantied never were cancelled because of my mods. A/C not working, Window regulators going out, Speakers starting to rattle, even replaced 7 Coilpacks under warranty with my A4(which was clearly modded and they knew it).

Unless your engine dies on the side of the road, or your wheel bearings fail because you put 22's on there, theres nothing to worry about.

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by HyperM3

I see where youre coming from. However, not to be argumentative, but using your exact scenario, I could bring up the fact that the clutch used in my car is the same one used in the 200HP more M5/M6. Therefore, the 100hp Im adding should be well within the threshold of component stress engineered from the factory.

(purely for hypothetical purposes, not an exact representation)

and back to my point, good luck with that in a court of law, the one you have to convene to challenge it. And how about the expenses/inconvenience you will incur to even take it that far?

back to my original point - they have the leverage.

[Chi-town330]

Originally Posted by HyperM3

This is all silly talk over and over again. We can give our sides as much as we want. However it comes down to this:

Ive never seen a documented case where Exhaust, Intake, or other products created any problems needing warranty work. Sure if you put in an aftermarket head unit and it blows the stock speakers then its your fault and the replacement speakers are not under warranty anymore.

By putting the PROcede, or any ECU enhancement, on my car, I have faith that nothing will happen to my engine. If one of my doors starts rattling, theres no way the dealer can blame it on my PROcede and void my warranty.

For all the people worrying about modding your cars and voiding warranty, show me ONE post on any forum where someone was denied warranty directly related to something causing a malfunction. Do not include incorrect installation either cus that doesnt count.

Theres more worry than fact in all these threads over and over again. Ive been modding my cars for almost 20 yrs and all the things Ive had warrantied never were cancelled because of my mods. A/C not working, Window regulators going out, Speakers starting to rattle, even replaced 7 Coilpacks under warranty with my A4(which was clearly modded and they knew it).

Unless your engine dies on the side of the road, or your wheel bearings fail because you put 22's on there, theres nothing to worry about.

good points. but quick question: have you ever done a mod that drastically improved HP, ever done one that greatly increased cylinder head pressures, etc? Procede may NEVER cause any problems. And I sincerely hope that is the case. But it is possible that one, or many cars might have problems down the road. Heck, the stock 335 turbos might have problems down the road without the mod, we don't know. In the unfortunate/unlikely case that a problem does occur, whether caused by procede or not, I personally would want my warranty in my corner.

I am not alone in my thinking here - seems like many 335 owners on here say they are dumping the car after the warranty ends. So clearly they are concerned with risk. With Procede, it's possible that your warranty might end sooner than expected. if you want to take that chance, that is a personal choice, I just think a few of us are trying to make sure that those folks on here who might not fully understand the situation and potential ramifications are properly informed so they can make a decision that is right for them (whatever that may be).

We all take risks every day, this is just another one. Hyper, you clearly understand the risks/rewards and are probably in a position to handle it. But maybe some folks aren't aware, AND are not in a position to handle a problem. I think a few of us are just trying to pass along some info that they might find usable, so they can make a decision that is right for them (whatever that may be).

I am not passing judgement on if people should take risks. I can think of many I took just this past weekend, so that would be pretty hypocritcal of me

[DCJAX]

Originally Posted by HyperM3

I see where youre coming from. However, not to be argumentative, but using your exact scenario, I could bring up the fact that the clutch used in my car is the same one used in the 200HP more M5/M6. Therefore, the 100hp Im adding should be well within the threshold of component stress engineered from the factory.

(purely for hypothetical purposes, not an exact representation)

If that is true, then I think you would have a good case. (it is right? I don't want a broken clutch ) That also goes against another poster's concept of fraud, it wouldn't be fraud if your clutch broke at power levels lower than what the unit should be able to handle. (based on other models)

My general rule of thumb is that once you get past basics like exhaust/intake, you need to be prepared to risk the warranty and the car itself.

edit. Can some of you guys please take the modding to the next level? I wanna see just how strong these cars are.

[HyperM3]

Originally Posted by Chi-town330

good points. but quick question: have you ever done a mod that drastically improved HP, ever done one that greatly increased cylinder head pressures, etc?

Yes, I supercharged my M3. Didnt come with forced induction from the factory. None of the internals were changed. This car is 10 yrs old now(granted its only got 48k on the clock) but its been run really hard whenever its taken out. The biggest problems I have had are dead pixels in the OBC, Dead lights in the dash. Probably need to replace the rear trailing arm bushings. Had a leak in the valve cover gasket but that was my fault.

Basically, any problems that might happen are going to be after the warranty period is over anyway. So its all for naught if you think things will not need to get replaced eventually because of wear and tear.

You can take a car that is bone stock and 7 yrs old and it has multiple failures. Take the same car and modify it and those failures will still happen. You just wont know if they were there with or without the mods. Either way, these engines are high performance engines. They are not designed to go a very long distance. Its rare that you see these cars with 120+k on the odo before its sold or needs some type of rebuild.

[Chi-town330]

very good points. but talking about failures on a bone stock car backs up my point - you NEVER know when your specific car will have some problems. Even if the mod didn't cause the problem, they might say it did, especially if in a very related area. we are talking first gen twin turbos here, so trying to be realistic.

my 1990 535 blew TWO headgaskets. Only mod was a Dinan chip. the second repair guy thinks the first time might have been caused by a faulty gasket (failure was on the outboard side of an outboard cylinder, typically a cool spot on an engine and not the first place a gasket will go), and not something caused by my actions/driving,etc. But let's say that happened on a car with boosted turbo pressure. I am not a mechanic, but common sense tells me they could blame a head gasket failure on increased boost, couldn't they?

Car had 60k miles at the time and was out of warranty, so moot point but just making an example.

BTW, I blew the head gasket again, in the same spot. the mechanic thinks the shop that did the work the first time did a really crappy job, which caused the second failure to occur (was not done at a dealership).

oh, and another BTW, that was the only mechanical problem I ever had with that car in 9 years - ALL (which were many) of the other problems were electrical as well

Good discussion!