Parasitic Drivetrain Losses

T Bone · 06-14-2007, 03:04 PM

Some cool threads popped up on the M5board and M3post discussing drivetrain losses. They linked in a test company.....very cool....check it out.

BMW 335i (6%)

http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=647

Audi RS4 (17%) Ball-Licker horrible

http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=281

E46 M3 (12%) eehh
http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=576

E60 M5 (7%)

http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=153

C6 Z06 (7%)

http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=630

Let's do a little math..... The new RS6 is rumored to have 580hp X 16% drivetrain losses = 487.2 hp....which means another kill for the M5 given the effective power and the monsterous weight of the RS6.

At the end of the day Audi drivetrains SUCK! When are they going to ditch Quattro in performance cars?

danielg · 06-14-2007, 03:12 PM

Audi's are such nice cars too. It's too bad they're so slow.

murellus · 06-14-2007, 03:40 PM

aren't these numbers flawed in the way they were derived? the engine power they use is manufacturer stated...it's pretty well agreed upon that the 335 has more than stated hp...............so the drivetrain losses will appear less by their calculations

RiXst3r · 06-14-2007, 03:45 PM

The 335 they tested was the automatic! 6%?? !
Ya... thats not right... pull out the engine, and get the REAL numbers at the crank, then you will see the real % loss

AndrewAZ · 06-14-2007, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by murellus

aren't these numbers flawed in the way they were derived? the engine power they use is manufacturer stated...it's pretty well agreed upon that the 335 has more than stated hp...............so the drivetrain losses will appear less by their calculations

+1 to that..

Also remember the audi is not RWD and of course has more to drive train to lose, but off the line they hook up like no other.

murellus · 06-14-2007, 03:46 PM

sorry if i burst anyone's bubble but that's some major experimental error

T Bone · 06-14-2007, 04:12 PM

So are we arguing data?

BMW has stated 300 hp.... 6% loss is awesome. Look at the M5 at 7% so the 335i datapoint seems reasonable.

On Audi? 17% sounds right....they get massacred at high speed by BMWs. How else do you explain an E39 M5 beating a newer RS4 on the airfield runs?

RiXst3r · 06-14-2007, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by T Bone

So are we arguing data?

yes, but not this data...

I argue the fact that the 335 has only 300hp at the crank... its got more than that.... BMW LIES!!!

T Bone · 06-14-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

yes, but not this data...

I argue the fact that the 335 has only 300hp at the crank... its got more than that.... BMW LIES!!!

Just remember the issues Mazda / Ford and even BMW had with the E46 M3.....

Now with SAE Net HP measurements and the measures BMW took in reducing rotational resistance of the actual engine (electronic water pumps, clutches etc)..... This actually reveals the true losses further back in the drivetrain.

With the E46M3 with the mechanical pumps, there was a 12% loss and with the 335i it was 6%....was that all in the tranny / axles? Heck no....pumps / clutches up front definitely helped.

In any case, what matters is what hits the road.....BMWs lay more love on the road.....

RiXst3r · 06-14-2007, 04:28 PM

Someone needs to test losses on a 335xi

T Bone · 06-14-2007, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiXst3r

Someone needs to test losses on a 335xi

The 335xi will be fine. The system can send 100% of the torque front to back..... And at high speeds, all torque goes to the back. Nothing like the life sucking Quattro.....

BTW, I still own a Quattro....nice Winter Car.

mesier1111 · 06-14-2007, 07:35 PM

This means, the BMW wasn't lieing about the 300/300 numbers the listed. What it meant is they have VASTLY improved drivetrain loss to a point none of us figured. All the magazines and testers who thought the 335i was underated were using 12-15% drivetrain loss. So with this in mind, the 278 rwhp sounds exactly right with the car putting out 300/300 at the crank. In fact, perhaps bmw even lied and its only putting 298 at the crank.

06-14-2007, 03:04 PM	#1
T Bone Brigadier General 532 Rep 4,021 Posts Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The land where we kill baby seals iTrader: (0)	Parasitic Drivetrain Losses Some cool threads popped up on the M5board and M3post discussing drivetrain losses. They linked in a test company.....very cool....check it out. BMW 335i (6%) http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=647 Audi RS4 (17%) Ball-Licker horrible http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=281 E46 M3 (12%) eehh http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=576 E60 M5 (7%) http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=153 C6 Z06 (7%) http://www.rri.se/popup/performanceg...p?ChartsID=630 Let's do a little math..... The new RS6 is rumored to have 580hp X 16% drivetrain losses = 487.2 hp....which means another kill for the M5 given the effective power and the monsterous weight of the RS6. At the end of the day Audi drivetrains SUCK! When are they going to ditch Quattro in performance cars? __________________ "Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
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06-14-2007, 03:12 PM	#2
danielg Lieutenant 27 Rep 528 Posts Drives: 07 335i sedan Join Date: May 2007 Location: Bay Area, CA iTrader: (0)	Audi's are such nice cars too. It's too bad they're so slow.
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06-14-2007, 03:40 PM	#3
murellus Lieutenant 12 Rep 523 Posts Drives: 22 x3m40i Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: nj/nyc iTrader: (0)	aren't these numbers flawed in the way they were derived? the engine power they use is manufacturer stated...it's pretty well agreed upon that the 335 has more than stated hp...............so the drivetrain losses will appear less by their calculations
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06-14-2007, 03:45 PM	#4
RiXst3r 274 Rep 6,510 Posts Drives: M235i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ohio iTrader: (14)	The 335 they tested was the automatic! 6%?? ! Ya... thats not right... pull out the engine, and get the REAL numbers at the crank, then you will see the real % loss
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06-14-2007, 03:46 PM	#6
murellus Lieutenant 12 Rep 523 Posts Drives: 22 x3m40i Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: nj/nyc iTrader: (0)	sorry if i burst anyone's bubble but that's some major experimental error
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06-14-2007, 04:12 PM	#7
T Bone Brigadier General 532 Rep 4,021 Posts Drives: 2008 335xi Coupe Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: The land where we kill baby seals iTrader: (0)	So are we arguing data? BMW has stated 300 hp.... 6% loss is awesome. Look at the M5 at 7% so the 335i datapoint seems reasonable. On Audi? 17% sounds right....they get massacred at high speed by BMWs. How else do you explain an E39 M5 beating a newer RS4 on the airfield runs? __________________ "Aerodynamics are for people who cannot build engines"......Enzo Ferrari
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06-14-2007, 04:28 PM	#10
RiXst3r 274 Rep 6,510 Posts Drives: M235i Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Ohio iTrader: (14)	Someone needs to test losses on a 335xi
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06-14-2007, 07:35 PM	#12
mesier1111 Banned 37 Rep 1,626 Posts Drives: 335i coupe, titanium Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Bucks County, PA iTrader: (0)	This means, the BMW wasn't lieing about the 300/300 numbers the listed. What it meant is they have VASTLY improved drivetrain loss to a point none of us figured. All the magazines and testers who thought the 335i was underated were using 12-15% drivetrain loss. So with this in mind, the 278 rwhp sounds exactly right with the car putting out 300/300 at the crank. In fact, perhaps bmw even lied and its only putting 298 at the crank.
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