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      09-03-2007, 05:24 PM   #1
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Speed Ticket

Hi guys,

I got a speeding ticket this labor day weekend. I was on the I-5 heading North to Bellingham when I got pulled over for speeding. The speed limit was 70mph and I was going 96mph.

What is considered excessive speeding in Washington? I got a ticket for 2nd degree negligent driving which is $550, so I decided to look around the I-Net to see my options. I found out that going over the speed limit by 25-30mph has a fine of only $247... My driving record has been decent, 1 speeding ticket last summer (June/Jul) and no DUIs. I have not gotten into an accident before either.

Should I try to fight this ticket and ask them to reduce the fine, or should I just pay it? I don't think I was being reckless because there were no cars in front or behind me (long stretch of empty road)... Oh btw, should I contest the charge because I believe that I was not being negligent, or should i just have a mitigation hearing and ask the judge to reduce the fine if I decide to challenge the ticket?

Thanks in advance.

Last edited by y2b3k; 09-03-2007 at 05:28 PM.. Reason: edit
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      09-03-2007, 05:47 PM   #2
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That sucks - sorry to hear

Was the road dry and conditions clear?
Were you on your cellphone at the time?
Was the trooper/cop hiding, or in "plain sight"?
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      09-03-2007, 07:51 PM   #3
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Washington's hidden "Driving Tax"

Washington sucks in one very important respect -- the speed limits are too low and enforced aggressively, effectively turning WSP officers into revenue agents. I just went on a 3,300 mile road trip through Montana, Wyoming and Colorado -- in that distance I did not see one cop pulling someone over. Traffic flowed much faster in these states (speed limit was 75 and they left you alone if you were not going more than 10 over). As soon as I got back to Washington, I saw 3 separate instaces where people had been pulled over in the first hour driving in this state. Perhaps it is because we have no state income tax and it is an easy way to raise revenue -- in any event, it is very annoying!
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      09-03-2007, 07:56 PM   #4
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yeah there's some spots heading up towards Bellingham that you really have to watch.

Ok, in WA State, they actually are able to arrest you if you're going 20 over the speed limit. Hence that "negligent" ticket you got. On your ticket you have the option to pay, contest by hearing/court date, or request a hearing/court date to "explain the situation". This last option is an admition of guilt, and the ticket will not be dismissed. The officer who issued the citation does not have to appear.

You run a very high chance of having this ticket greatly reduced by selecting the 3rd option. When you go in for your hearing/court date, don't make excuses. Say something like "I usually stick to the speed limit, but I got dstracted and lost track of my speed. It was my fault for not paying better attention". You have a pretty good chance of getting this thing dropped by 40-50%.

I'm sorry to say, I have a little bit of experience in this, although not for a few years (knock wood). good luck!
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      09-03-2007, 08:10 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normtrum View Post
yeah there's some spots heading up towards Bellingham that you really have to watch.

Ok, in WA State, they actually are able to arrest you if you're going 20 over the speed limit. Hence that "negligent" ticket you got. On your ticket you have the option to pay, contest by hearing/court date, or request a hearing/court date to "explain the situation". This last option is an admition of guilt, and the ticket will not be dismissed. The officer who issued the citation does not have to appear.

You run a very high chance of having this ticket greatly reduced by selecting the 3rd option. When you go in for your hearing/court date, don't make excuses. Say something like "I usually stick to the speed limit, but I got dstracted and lost track of my speed. It was my fault for not paying better attention". You have a pretty good chance of getting this thing dropped by 40-50%.

I'm sorry to say, I have a little bit of experience in this, although not for a few years (knock wood). good luck!

Thanks for the info. Yah, I was thinking of either contesting it or having a hearing (mitigation). Btw, the conditions were fair (sunny/cloudy but clear), I was not talking on a cellphone, and the cop was "hiding" not in clear sight.

I believe they work in pairs (eg. 1 cop is at an exit where he just looks to see who "might" be speeding - anyone who travels faster than the avg. pack, then he radios it in to his buddy on the next exit, who then follows you or clocks your speed and issues you the ticket). This weekend was especially bad, there were at least 4 instances of speeders down to Seattle, and 2-3 instances up to Bellingham. It was like a crazy cop weekend frenzy...!

I'll try the 3rd option - mitigation. I'll admit that I was speeding but ask if they can drop my charge to Speeding. I think 2nd degree neglient driving was too harsh... But if I admit that I was speeding, won't the judge automatically sentence me as a negligent driver? Also, where does it say that you can be arrested for going 20mph over the speed limit in WA? And why would they have tickets for going up to 40mph over the speed limit when they can just charge everyone over 20mph w/ a 2nd degree negligence offence?

Wouldn't I have to technically contest/challenge the ticket in order to get it dropped down to a speeding ticket? Either way, this is going to be on my driving record, but "speeding" is much better than a Traffic Infraction. Plus, if I can get it dropped to just "speeding", then I'll only have to pay $247 vs $550...
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      09-03-2007, 08:12 PM   #6
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Always contest your ticket! That is how the system works, they have to PROVE you were negligent in driving. This is also your only chance to win and not have the ticket appear on your record.

If you select the third option, "mitigation", the ticket WILL go on your record. Under "mitigation", the only thing that will happen is the fine may be reduced. But it will still go on your record. For a regular speeding ticket, I might be OK with that.

A Negligent Driving ticket is a big deal. It has the potential to really screw up your insurance rates and many other things. You need a lawyer. I've never used this guy, but I've heard good things. http://speedinginseattle.com/ticket_packet.html

His fee to represent you for a Negligent Driving charge is $450. That sounds like a lot, but even if you get your fine reduced by half through mitigation, the impact to future employment and insurance rates are still far more.
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      09-03-2007, 08:20 PM   #7
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Yeah that's good stuf by scollins above.....one other thing if you do in fact decide to contest it, and not use a lawyer. When the court mails you a court date, never, never, never accept the date they give you. The day they set is for the convenience of the officer, not you. You can call the court and claim you're out of the country or something. This gives you a better chance of the officer not being able to show up for the court date, which is an automatic dismissal.
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      09-03-2007, 08:30 PM   #8
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The thing is, I live in Vancouver... Couldn't the officer just say that I was going 27mph over the speed limit, and that would be "negligent" enough? I did a little reading on the definition of "negligence" as stated by legislation and it defines it as "committing an act that is endangers or likely to endanger someone"... I could've technically been arrested, which would have been worse. Also, I was on the left lane and had to pass 1 car who wouldn't change into the slower (middle) lane. So I had to signal, change into the middle lane, and then change back in order to pass him. But upon passing that 1 sedan, my speed dropped to around 80mph which is when I saw the cop flash his lights behind me.

LOL, to contest or not to contest? Another thing is, I don't want to contest because it might piss off the judge, which will likely result in a guilty sentence. Btw, since I live in Canada, how would they put this on my driving/insurance record?? I don't live or work in the States... =( Thanks for any additional info! Why would there be a mitigation section if people decide to admit to the infraction? How would that reduce their fine? I'm more interested in dropping the fine to $247 as opposed to $550. Plus, for mitigation the cop doesn't appear so it would probably be easier to talk to the judge and get a lower fine, wouldn't it??

Last edited by y2b3k; 09-03-2007 at 09:32 PM..
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      09-03-2007, 08:40 PM   #9
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It depends if Wa State has a transfer agreement (or whatever it's called) with Canada. My guess is that we do.

If you contest without the lawyer that scollins suggested you run a very high chance of losing....If I had to guess I'd say a 90% chance. And yes, you def do run the risk of pissing off the judge. Admitting your guilty and choosing the "I want to explain the circumstances" option, I really think you have a better then 50% chance of getting the negligence lowered to speeding.

I guess you have to ask yourself (which I know you're already doing!) is do I want to spend a pretty good chunk of change on getting a lawyer and try to get the whole thing dropped (which doesn't garuntee you will), or do I try and explain myself and try and get it reduced. Tough call, only you can answer it.
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      09-03-2007, 09:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by normtrum View Post
It depends if Wa State has a transfer agreement (or whatever it's called) with Canada. My guess is that we do.

If you contest without the lawyer that scollins suggested you run a very high chance of losing....If I had to guess I'd say a 90% chance. And yes, you def do run the risk of pissing off the judge. Admitting your guilty and choosing the "I want to explain the circumstances" option, I really think you have a better then 50% chance of getting the negligence lowered to speeding.

I guess you have to ask yourself (which I know you're already doing!) is do I want to spend a pretty good chunk of change on getting a lawyer and try to get the whole thing dropped (which doesn't garuntee you will), or do I try and explain myself and try and get it reduced. Tough call, only you can answer it.
Haha, yah, you read my mind - I am asking myself because I have gone through the contest process in Canada, and ended up losing (guilty). I know that if I challenge the charge w/o a lawyer I will definitely lose. I don't know the terms, loop-holes, and knowledge to get out of this offence. However, hiring a lawyer will basically cost me $500 USD, which I can't really afford because I'm a University student and need to pay tuition as well as finance my car + gas. Getting this dropped to a Speeding ticket would be best, since it only collects 3 pts on my license and I only pay $300 USD (including gas), which is a lot better than $500 and 550.00 lol
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      09-03-2007, 11:00 PM   #11
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"Don't do the crime if you can't pay the fine!"

I'm just kidding. Yeah, the whole "international" aspect of it makes it more difficult. I can almost guarantee you though that the cop wrote it as "negligent" because you are from Canada. He figured you'd be far less likely to contest it and just pay the fine (more $$$$ for their coffers.)

Tough call. I'd still fight it myself, even without a lawyer. I'd like to know how it was determined to be "negligent driving" as opposed to just a speeding ticket.

But consider, if you contest it, with or without a lawyer, here are the possible outcomes:
1.) Gets tossed out on a technicality - you win
2.) State doesn't prove it was negligent driving - you win, even if you were speeding (the judge can't just change it a speeding ticket. The state either has to prove you were negligent driving or the case gets dropped, those are the only two outcomes.)
3.) The judge finds you were negligent, but reduces the fee anyway
4.) The judge finds against you, you pay the full fee and court costs.
5.) With a lawyer, you'll pay them money too, but it is highly likely you will win the case.

For mitigation, there are only two outcomes:
1.) You pay the full fine (not usually the case)
2.) You'll pay a reduced fine, but it would still be negligent driving.

Remember, mitigation is an admission of guilt, and basically "throwing yourself on the mercy of the court."

Again, I'm no expert on how this affects your driving record in Canada and your insurance rates. It might not be worth it in the end.

Good luck!
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      09-03-2007, 11:05 PM   #12
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Did he get you with radar, laser or pacing?
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      09-04-2007, 01:11 AM   #13
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Thanks scollin for the breakdown of outcomes, i really appreaciate you and normtrum's advice/help.

Gum5ho3, the officer tagged me with SMD whatever that means (radar most likely), not pacing or aircraft, lol...

I am trying to figure the probability of outcome 2.) State doesn't prove it was negligent driving - you win, even if you were speeding (the judge can't just change it a speeding ticket. The state either has to prove you were negligent driving or the case gets dropped, those are the only two outcomes.)

Outcome 1 and 3 are unlikely because I see no technicalities on the ticket, and I bet the judge would never reduce the fine if I was found guilty of negligent driving... I'm basically trying to find a method to reduce my fine as much as possible, so I don't really want a lawyer either... And w/o one, it will be much harder to contest the charge and win. I looked up the legislation on driving negligence in the 2nd degree, and what i've found is that I have to be both negligent and endanger the safety of someone... So technically I could be found guilty because I was negligent/ignored the speed limit and I could have been a danger to the sedan I passed using the middle (slower lane)... It is difficult to say eh?

I think with mitigation I could at least plead that I was heading home and trying to beat the border wait on labor day weekend 3 hrs (reason). Also, I could try the "I don't know the speed limit becuz i'm from Canada" since it was my 1st time to WA driving my own car...? (possible reason). Furthermore, I have only had 1 speeding infraction prior to this insident (1 yr ago) and no accidents or DUIs (generally safe - explanation). In addition, I do not believe that I was endangering the lives of others or else I would've slowed down - empty lane except for 1 car, not street racing (challenge). And finally, I am a student so I cannot afford such a large fine (reason).

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      09-04-2007, 01:34 AM   #14
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I'll post the name of a good lawyer down here tomorrow when I get into work. I think he charges like 300 bucks for a typical case and he has a really good overturn percentage - like 98percent or something. I haven't personally used him but my buddy has and my buddy is the king of doing stupid shit. Doing 65 in a 30, driving off road, on shoulders, etc. He always gets them thrown out of court because of this lawyer.
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      09-04-2007, 04:41 AM   #15
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I'm the king of contesting tickets. My lawyer Jeanie Mucklestone has gotten me out of TONS. INCLUDING A NEGLIGENT (completely dismissed).

mucklestone.com

No matter what you do, always contest a ticket. NEVER put mitigation, it is admit of guilt and wastes time.
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      09-04-2007, 09:40 AM   #16
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I dont see how you can say you weren't negligent going 92 MPH in a 70.

(1)(a) A person is guilty of negligent driving in the second degree if, under circumstances not constituting negligent driving in the first degree, he or she operates a motor vehicle in a manner that is both negligent and endangers or is likely to endanger any person or property.


(b) It is an affirmative defense to negligent driving in the second degree that must be proved by the defendant by a preponderance of the evidence, that the driver was operating the motor vehicle on private property with the consent of the owner in a manner consistent with the owner's consent.


(c) Negligent driving in the second degree is a traffic infraction and is subject to a penalty of two hundred fifty dollars.


(2) For the purposes of this section, "negligent" means the failure to exercise ordinary care, and is the doing of some act that a reasonably careful person would not do under the same or similar circumstances or the failure to do something that a reasonably careful person would do under the same or similar circumstances.


(3) Any act prohibited by this section that also constitutes a crime under any other law of this state may be the basis of prosecution under such other law notwithstanding that it may also be the basis for prosecution under this section.


if you speed, whether or not you think you are safe, you are undeniably endangering other motorists, and you should know that. A reasonable person would know that going that fast in a 70 mph increase danger. I know that everyone gets a little lead foot now and then, but its never worth it, especially with other people on the road. Stay safe out there...

gluck
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      09-04-2007, 10:22 AM   #17
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Here's the contact info for that lawyer. Call him up, present your dilema and see what he has to say. At the very least you most likely won't have to appear in court.

http://local.yahoo.com/details?id=22226243
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      09-04-2007, 02:36 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PJS3 View Post
if you speed, whether or not you think you are safe, you are undeniably endangering other motorists, and you should know that. A reasonable person would know that going that fast in a 70 mph increase danger. I know that everyone gets a little lead foot now and then, but its never worth it, especially with other people on the road. Stay safe out there...

gluck
Disagree. in WA, violation of a statute is not negligence per se, but might constitute evidence of negligence. So, a person can be driving at a speed exceeding the speed limit, but still use due care. And the test for neglegence is a conduct of a reasonable person under the same or similar circumstances. So, in theory, if it was a wide open road, dry pavement, sunny weather, great visibility, and no traffic, going 92 in the 70 zone might not necessarily be nelgigent. in practice, however, that argument is likely a looser.
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      09-04-2007, 04:09 PM   #19
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Find yourself a Washington based Traffic attorney. Will likely be your best bet. depending on how things shake out, frequently you can actually get them reduced to something other than a Moving violation or even dismissed.
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      09-05-2007, 09:08 AM   #20
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[QUOTE=ATG;1361438]Disagree. in WA, violation of a statute is not negligence per se, but might constitute evidence of negligence. So, a person can be driving at a speed exceeding the speed limit, but still use due care. And the test for neglegence is a conduct of a reasonable person under the same or similar circumstances. So, in theory, if it was a wide open road, dry pavement, sunny weather, great visibility, and no traffic, going 92 in the 70 zone might not necessarily be nelgigent. in practice, however, that argument is likely a looser.

I did mean to say that speeding is negligent per se. In my opinion, it sounds like he was negligent, but that is a pre judgment without knowing the facts of the case, conditions, and traffic. I did say that speeding does endanger other motorists on the road. Speeding in excess of the limit with due care wont matter, youre still speeding in excess of the law. Its not a subjective test, whether or not you feel you were safe moving at that speed.
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      09-05-2007, 10:57 AM   #21
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There are 2 different statutes: one imposes a fine for driving in excess of the posted speed limit (strict liablity), the other punishes negligent driving (reasonableness standard). A person may be guilty of violation of the first statute and not guilty of violation of the second one. Otherwise any speeding automatically constitutes negligence, which is not the case.
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      09-05-2007, 12:33 PM   #22
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Quote:
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There are 2 different statutes: one imposes a fine for driving in excess of the posted speed limit (strict liablity), the other punishes negligent driving (reasonableness standard). A person may be guilty of violation of the first statute and not guilty of violation of the second one. Otherwise any speeding automatically constitutes negligence, which is not the case.
That's exactly what I'm contemplating... Should I have just received a speeding ticket or a negligent driving infraction? I think a speeding ticket would haven been more reasonable because there are tickets for travelling 40mph over the speed limit. A speeding ticket for the same offence would carry a fine of $247; however, I believe the officer wanted to give me a bigger fine ($550) because I am from Canada, and that I would be less likely to appeal... Hence the 2nd degree negligent driving infraction.

Nevertheless, the judge may believe that going over the speed limit by 25mph is considered both negligent AND dangerous. I know that I was a bit negligent for speeding, but my reason for going fast was to get back to the border and avoid a 4 hour line-up (took 4 hrs to cross the Cdn border to get to the US)... But I seriously dont' think I was endangering anyone. Nonetheless, some people believe that travelling fast (Speeding) is a dangerous act in itself. Although my question for that statement would be, why do most officers allow people to speed 10mph over the speed limit IF speeding endangers other drivers??

Personally, I believe there are 2 types of speeding: 1) speeding recklessly - dangerous (eg. weaving or street racing) 2) Speeding that doesn't hurt anyone (eg. travelling fast on a near empty highway under good weather conditions). I think the judge should take into account that I was speeding on a highway and ran a very small risk of causing a collision, which is a lot less dangerous compared to speeding in the city where there are bicyclists and pedestrians...

Again, how would a judge differentiate between "speeding" and "negligence"? I believe that constantly weaving in and out, or causing other motorists to break or even other dangerous manuvers would be cause for negligence + endangerment. But, in my case, I simple passed 1 vehicle who would not yield to the slower lane. Plus, I wasn't weaving in and out of traffic (I also signaled, changed lanes, and then signaled again to change back onto the passing lane)... Argh, wut to do =S At least I have a few more days to think about it before making my final decision.

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