[ronin951]

My pedal is definitely spongy and travel has increased significantly (one in the same?). I'm wondering if there's any special bleed process they may be missing.

I've run across some BMW specific HOWTO's (mostly e36's) on the interwebs and they indicate, albeit arguably, that you have to enable the ABS to bleed properly. I've never done this in the past. Necessary?

The other issue is the abs doesn't seem to be engaging. On a hard brake the front wheels just lock-up. I'm guessing this is due to the coding that needs to be done, which I'm getting done by the dealer next week.

So, anyone have any similar M-perf horror stories and a solution? Yes, I've searched.

[mikew2069]

I have the exact issue as you but no solution unfortunately.... I've bled them three times but I've never gone in for the coding and haven't slammed on the brakes to test abs...

[ronin951]

Originally Posted by mikew2069

I have the exact issue as you but no solution unfortunately.... I've bled them three times but I've never gone in for the coding and haven't slammed on the brakes to test abs...

Did you use a pressure bleeder?

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by ronin951

Did you use a pressure bleeder?

Yup, I have a Motive power bleeder

[F30form]

For god sakes man, TAKE IT TO THE DEALER. It is not a "simple and easy job" on a brand new, technologically advanced and integrated car. There are many reasons why you buy M Performance stuff, and one of them is because you want to be able to warranty it if necessary. Why would you buy it and void the warranty by having a non BMW dealer do the work? Again this is a safety issue.

TAKE IT TO THE DEALER.

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by F30form

For god sakes man, TAKE IT TO THE DEALER. It is not a "simple and easy job" on a brand new, technologically advanced and integrated car. There are many reasons why you buy M Performance stuff, and one of them is because you want to be able to warranty it if necessary. Why would you buy it and void the warranty by having a non BMW dealer do the work? Again this is a safety issue.

TAKE IT TO THE DEALER.

It really is a simple and easy job - aside from the coding.... I'm not really worried about any safety issue.

[ronin951]

Originally Posted by mikew2069

It really is a simple and easy job - aside from the coding.... I'm not really worried about an safety issue.

+1. Except for the hubs having to be pulled.

[mikew2069]

What does that mean? They somehow code abs into bleed mode and then bleed them? I've never heard of that ...

[shivaswrath]

it's odd that those of us that had it done at the dealer had no issue, and those that DIY, have the spongy pedal syndrome...

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

it's odd that those of us that had it done at the dealer had no issue, and those that DIY, have the spongy pedal syndrome...

I'm almost certain that I've read that there are some that had the spongy pedal that had them done at the dealer too...

But if your theory is correct, what do you think that can mean? That maybe they bleed them a certain/different way? I can't imagine that the coding could have anything to do with the pedal feel...

I wish we could get access to TIS to see if they have specific instructions for bleeding brakes on the f30...

[F30form]

Originally Posted by mikew2069

What does that mean? They somehow code abs into bleed mode and then bleed them? I've never heard of that ...

Oh gee, I thought it was so easy? I mean, bleeding the brakes on an E30 or E36 is one thing, but not these cars.

[shivaswrath]

Originally Posted by mikew2069

I'm almost certain that I've read that there are some that had the spongy pedal that had them done at the dealer too...

But if your theory is correct, what do you think that can mean? That maybe they bleed them a certain/different way? I can't imagine that the coding could have anything to do with the pedal feel...

I wish we could get access to TIS to see if they have specific instructions for bleeding brakes on the f30...

I red through some older posts, you're correct, there are some that did the dealer install EARLY on that had spongy pedals, but I think the dealers either got better, or BMW issued something, because I haven't heard of complaints since...

Unsure, maybe it's their BMW bleeder, or maybe it's the coding?

Only thing coding could do would be to impact the brake bias.

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by F30form

Oh gee, I thought it was so easy? I mean, bleeding the brakes on an E30 or E36 is one thing, but not these cars.

Yes, it is easy - VERY easy. Unless there is something going on that I don't know about... That's why we post things like this on the forum - knowledge share.

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

I red through some older posts, you're correct, there are some that did the dealer install EARLY on that had spongy pedals, but I think the dealers either got better, or BMW issued something, because I haven't heard of complaints since...

Unsure, maybe it's their BMW bleeder, or maybe it's the coding?

Only thing coding could do would be to impact the brake bias.

I'm on a Houston BMW facebook group and posted this issue there. Some of the guys on the group are saying that the Motive bleeder is the issue and they've had the same spongy feeling after using the Motive. Supposedly they like to use the Motive to get the new fluid in and then use the old pedal bleed method to get the rest of the air out.

I may try that method and see if its any different. I'm not concerned with safety or anything. Just not getting that immediate initial bite like I expect.

[ronin951]

Got this from a good friend who works at BMW: "Have it done at the dealer. There is a mode that is activated when car is connected to computer that properly bleeds brakes. "

If you google around you'll find some info on on the "bleed mode". Best I can make of it is it enables ABS and according to some information it pulsates it. Not sure what else. This would make sense. Especially if you inadvertently got air in the ABS. i.e. Let the reservoir go dry.

I'm actually now starting to get a little better pedal feel. Not 100% better, but better (maybe it's in my head). I can now heel toe, which was kinda my barometer. I'm going to take it out for a hard spin late tonight and really get them heated up.

I'm going to throw this out as an idea. Could the coding also affect the booster? I'm not sure how/if that's regulated, but maybe it's electronically adjusted to firm things up?

[ronin951]

Update: Had the dealer bleed them and things are much improved. Not off/on like before the upgrade, which is actually a really nice change. The re-bleed got rid of the initial dead area.

That said, I then put porterfield ST-43's in the front and they grab like holy hell - even just tapping the brakes. I can lock up 235 PSS's with about 1 inch of modulation. I'm not sure if this is a function of the pad compound or something else. Definitely less progression than stock.

BTW, using dealer fluid. No ATE Blue for now...well ever

[mikew2069]

Originally Posted by ronin951

Update: Had the dealer bleed them and things are much improved. Not off/on like before the upgrade, which is actually a really nice change. The re-bleed got rid of the initial dead area.

That said, I then put porterfield ST-43's in the front and they grab like holy hell - even just tapping the brakes. I can lock up 235 PSS's with about 1 inch of modulation. I'm not sure if this is a function of the pad compound or something else. Definitely less progression than stock.

BTW, using dealer fluid. No ATE Blue for now...well ever

Good to know! I've been too lazy to re-bleed again. Can you please post info on finding aftermarket pad options? I want to find some low dust pads even if it means giving up some stopping power...

[ronin951]

Originally Posted by mikew2069

Good to know! I've been too lazy to re-bleed again. Can you please post info on finding aftermarket pad options? I want to find some low dust pads even if it means giving up some stopping power...

Aftermarket pads are a work in progress. There is a lot of confusion about backing plates. BMW Performance, M Performance, M-Sport, different brake combo's have led to a lot of confusion. The conclusion we came to was that to get rears Porterfield would need the pads to make a new backing plate. If anyone wants to volunteer let me know.

As for the fronts, I think I was just sent 335 pads. They fit and are a huge improvement. However, I've had some issues with vibration, so I'm working with them on that. I'll start a thread when/if things are worked out.

BTW, yesterday I took out the race pads and went back to OE. Pretty much back to "spongy". Relatively speaking at least. I'm starting to wonder if something's up with the pads and it's just a matter of them not biting. I can't imagine there being such a drastic difference between race and OE performance.

[ronin951]

Originally Posted by shivaswrath

it's odd that those of us that had it done at the dealer had no issue, and those that DIY, have the spongy pedal syndrome...

Question for you. At what point relative to the accelerator do you come close to the limits of the tires? i.e. abs

[wharton]

Based on what I'm reading, those who DIY have a spongy feel and those who had it done at the dealer, don't. My 335 is on order, I'm going to have the performance brakes installed at the port or at the dealer. Does it mean I won't have the spongy feel? I don't mind spending the money on these, but I would expect same if not better braking from OEM.

[ronin951]

Originally Posted by wharton

Based on what I'm reading, those who DIY have a spongy feel and those who had it done at the dealer, don't. My 335 is on order, I'm going to have the performance brakes installed at the port or at the dealer. Does it mean I won't have the spongy feel? I don't mind spending the money on these, but I would expect same if not better braking from OEM.

It depends on how you define better. They are definitely much more progressive, but I think that has a lot to do with the pads. I swapped in some track compound pads in the front and there was no progression at all. I'd barely push the pedal and the tires would lock up.

That said, I think there's a little too much travel before any engagement. Initially I thought this was air in the lines. After 3 professional bleeds, 3 cans of ATE, and a full dealer flush there's not much change.

Working under the assumption that all the air is out of the system, I'm thinking there's something more systemic going on here. It's as if the brake booster is over boosting. After a fair amount of research on realoem I found that the 328 and 335 have both different vacuum pumps and different vacuum lines coming off the booster. I'm pretty much an "internet expert" when it comes to brake boosting; However, a failed vacuum pump will for sure result in a harder pedal. Presumably the opposite is true too.

Practically speaking, I still like them better than the stock setup (M-sport). The m-sport pads just seemed to bite too much for daily driving IMO. Especially stop-and-go.

[ronin951]

So I thought I'd update this thread as I now have somewhat of a solution. I think my issue was responsiveness of the OE pads. I'm ending up going with Porterfield compounds. I'd rather use something else, but they were the only company I could find that had the customer support and turnaround time to create custom pads.

I've run a few combo's on the track and here were the results...

Road Atlanta - Porterfield R4 front/ OE rear - Way too much stopping power. Wheels would easily lock up and they were just too touchy for my taste
Roebling Road - OE front / OE rear - Brakes held up good and I do like the stock progression. However, the pedal travel was too much
Sebring - OE front / OE rear - Same as Roebling. However, pads began to severely fade. I had a couple 'oh s*t' moments. No, it wasn't fluid. Pedal was consistent.
Sebring - PF R4-S front / PF R4-S rear - TBD in 2 weeks

While I'll need to update again, one thing to note is that I will be using aftermarket pads in the rear. Something I have yet to find for the M-Performance kit. I've been street driving the R4-S in the front for a couple months and am extremely happy with them. However, I think I've got a little too much front bias. Primarily based on the increase in front tire noise on around town driving. Hopefully matching the compounds will balance things out.

While not everyone will be a fan of Porterfield compound, do keep in mind that they can make a custom pad using any compound. They do custom jobs all the time for major manufacturers so if you want another compound they should be able to use a blank from another pad company. The only reason I'm not having them do this is I've got some other priorities with my cash ATM.

In summary, I'm rather excited to get these rear pads and if anyone is interested PM me and I'll put you in touch with the right people. Cool thing is it's a 3 day turnaround. Also, I sent them a NIB rear pad, so they should be able to produce them pretty spot on.

Edit: Sebring went very well. I think this will be my goto setup for now.

[mikew2069]

Whats the cost of them to make custom pads? I'm also curious about getting a low dust pad.