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      10-10-2007, 12:23 AM   #1
sg335
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Track Day Engine Shutdown

I had an opportunity to drive my car at Cal Speedway on Monday with very little traffic in a controlled manner at close to race speeds. We did not run the weekend Roval layout, but the standard Infield course. Average air temps were mid 80's with a high of about 89 degrees and low winds. Oil temps stayed at 270 degrees with factory oil UNTIL I tried using second gear for entry and exit of all the turns.

Given the stock gearing of the tranny and rear end, third gear (for this track) is a little to low and does not provide enought torque to pull out of the corners strong, and second gear a little to high which forces the car to run above 6000 rpms. Second gear is faster and requires significantly more work with the gearbox and downshift/braking coordination but worth it for I believe an additional .5+ seconds per lap.

I had no problems with engine limp home mode as long as I did not shift into second gear. Third gear in all the corners provided a constant oil temp of 270 degrees (6 speed manual with oil cooler). However, when using second gear for all the turns, oil temps hit 290 within three laps and the car shut down. One cool down lap and the car was back to running fine. In the following sessions, I experienced the same thing. Run in third gear and the temps are fine. Try second gear for the turns and the car shuts down at 290 degrees. During the last session, I ran in third gear most of the time and only ran second gear for a few corners. Oil temps hoovered at around 280 but did not shut down.

Conclusion: The extra heat generated from second gear extended operation at high rpms will put the car in the "danger zone" of limp home mode. This was repeatable on several occations and and symptom curred by staying out of this high rpm zone. I believe most drivers of the 335 are not experinecing this problem because most drivers will be satisfied with driving in third gear through these corners (Infield road course, not Roval). I believe if we took a poll of those that drive the Infield road course, most would rarly use second gear, and if they did, they would not not use second all the way around the King Taco building section which can be up to six corners long. Third gear through these sections will be satisfying to most and is definately easier to drive. Plus this Infield road course track is short and tight, allowing second gear downshift and track outs, whereas longer road course have more cool down time between each turn. Last month at Buttonwillow, I had no problems with limp home mode simply because there is not an opportunity to use second gear extensively through multiple sections at a time.

This problem must be fixed and a solution found ASAP. I have driven my E36 3.0 at this same track under same conditions in second gear for the same corners all day long (over three hours of track time per day) and never had a problem with oil or coolant temps as they stayed in their "normal" range on the guages.

So is this an oil issue only? I am not sure. There is discussion within the forum of three possibilities; oil, coolant and AIT's. There is also a list of factory shut down numbers for these values, and 290 degree oil temps should not cause complete limp home mode. Therefore I continue to believe that coolant temps are playing a very large role in this overheating problem. I ran stock oil and it looks like my oil temps are the same as those who ran other oils here at Cal Speedway and S4to335's analysis in the other current thread. So I don't think it is the oil so much anymore, but the engine is just putting out too much heat to quickly when running at extended high rpms that all systems are getting too hot too quickly. I am sure a larger oil cooler will help as well as a larger radiator. Better oil and water wetter is a must for now and I will try both next time out. I am very disappointed with this car and its overheating issues to the point that I may just sell the car and get a NA engine vehicle. Anyone want my TCKline suspension?

To address the brakes system, I found them very good for stock brakes, but could not push the car to where I wanted to. The brakes got soft and I needed to back off of them the whole day to conserve there ability to stop the car. The pads held up pretty good for stock pads but an upgrade is needed if you drive your car hard. I still have my race pads I have not used as I wanted to see how the stock system performed. RBF600 or similar is also highly recommended if you are planning extended heavy braking in this car. Again, most drivers will find this stock system fine as most driver schools have lots of participants and it is rare to have no traffic each lap especially in the B C and D groups and therefore one cannot explore the limits of the braking system. The suspension drove great at the track and have no complaints there, as did the R compound tires.

Thanks for listening.
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      10-10-2007, 01:00 AM   #2
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Who is working on a bigger oil cooler???? Bueller ? Bueller ? anyone ?
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      10-10-2007, 07:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymous335 View Post
Looks like so long as the 335s stay off the track, no heating problems (providing they have the stock oil coolers). But on the track, we should go with thicker oil, water wetter, and watch the downshifts. If we do that, we can PARTICIPATE in the DEs, we just can't be very competitive...

Or, just go with a bigger/better radiator, fan, and a second oil cooler (mounted away from the brakes).
I really hope we can be competitive in our cars. I hope to get about 5 DE weekends out of it next year. I'll be very dissapointed if I have repeated cooling issues.
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      10-10-2007, 08:13 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sg335 View Post
So is this an oil issue only? I am not sure. There is discussion within the forum of three possibilities; oil, coolant and AIT's. There is also a list of factory shut down numbers for these values, and 290 degree oil temps should not cause complete limp home mode. Therefore I continue to believe that coolant temps are playing a very large role in this overheating problem.
The same thing happened to me repeatedly at Big Willow. I had my Davis Carchip plugged into the OBDII port and it recorded coolant temps in excess of 242 F where BMW's own documents (can be downloaded in the forced induction section) say power is cut.

Let me guess, you experienced no half engine indicating a Limp Home Mode in the instrument cluster? When I took my car (the step I no longer have) to the dealer after Big Willow they said the car’s computer recorded no faults. Could this be the case if the car shuts down due to excess coolant or intake temps? Doesn’t make sense.

As many have said, it seems this car is in need of both a bigger oil cooler and higher capacity radiator. I'm just shocked BMW didn't experience this problem during development. But I suppose most of the track development took place on the Nurburgring which is a long high speed track where cooling would likley be less of an issue.

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      10-10-2007, 08:40 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reb03 View Post
The same thing happened to me repeatedly at Big Willow. I had my Davis Carchip plugged into the OBDII port and it recorded coolant temps in excess of 242 F where BMW's own documents (can be downloaded in the forced induction section) say power is cut.

Let me guess, you experienced no half engine indicating a Limp Home Mode in the instrument cluster? When I took my car (the step I no longer have) to the dealer after Big Willow they said the car’s computer recorded no faults. Could this be the case if the car shuts down due to excess coolant or intake temps? Doesn’t make sense.

As many have said, it seems this car is in need of both a bigger oil cooler and higher capacity radiator. I'm just shocked BMW didn't experience this problem during development. But I suppose most of the track development took place on the Nurburgring which is a long high speed track where cooling would likley be less of an issue.

So are you guys seeing the cooling issues on shorter, tighter tracks? Do you think longer, high-speed tracks such as watkins glen, summit point, VIR, etc. would be more suitable for this car?
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      10-10-2007, 09:06 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ToddPhilly View Post
So are you guys seeing the cooling issues on shorter, tighter tracks? Do you think longer, high-speed tracks such as watkins glen, summit point, VIR, etc. would be more suitable for this car?
I think tighter tracks create more problems but Big Willow cannot be considered a tight track. Turns 3-4-5 are pretty tight but the rest of the track is pretty wide open and fast. What I had going against me at Big Willow was the outside air temp of ~95 degrees.
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      10-10-2007, 09:44 AM   #7
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The tracks I have been on have some very high speed sections...maybe conducive to cooling...I think sitting behind someone on course may affect cooling too. In the end..its a mixture of a bunch of factors as one might think. At Thunderhill I hit 125 in main straight...115 in back straight..and 110 between turn #9 and #10....and maybe 105 between turn #8 and #9. That was the track that I got 280 degree temps with...and the temps were at 70-72 degrees tops. This was with OEM oil. At Sears Point this past weekend there were only two maybe three places that I went over 100...and the temps were only in the 255 range ..with one anomaly being a session when I hit 270 degrees (1 out of 9 sessions)...AND I was going harder at Sears Point than I was at Thunderhill. I really think that 10w60 BMW Motorsport oil contributed to lower temps.
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      10-10-2007, 10:31 AM   #8
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I was so pissed at the time it happened, but I do believe some red light flashed on the display for a moment and don't remember if the engine symbol stayed on.

Reb03, where do I buy one of those chips? I'll be at Willow Springs soon at the big track and will see what happens. In my other car I take turns 3-5 in second gear. It will be interesting to see what happens in the 335 in second gear through that section. I guess a chip upgrade would help out in the torque departemnt and allow one to hold third gear without the need to downshift, but I am concerned that the extra boost will just make the problem worse when really pushing the car.
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      10-10-2007, 10:53 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sg335 View Post
I was so pissed at the time it happened, but I do believe some red light flashed on the display for a moment and don't remember if the engine symbol stayed on.

Reb03, where do I buy one of those chips?
go to www.davisnet.com, click Automotive on top, click CarChip in the left margin to read up on it. I actually bought mine from a vendor on Amazon.com. You can also find them on eBay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sg335 View Post
I'll be at Willow Springs soon at the big track and will see what happens. In my other car I take turns 3-5 in second gear.
I also used 2nd gear in turns 3-4-5 (I think) but every time my car shut down I was in the fast turn 8-9 combo. I would get power back near the end of turn 9 or at the beginning of the front straight where I regularly saw 125mph.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sg335 View Post
I guess a chip upgrade would help out in the torque departemnt and allow one to hold third gear without the need to downshift, but I am concerned that the extra boost will just make the problem worse when really pushing the car.
I'm considering the SSTT. I haven't heard of a single CEL or problem with this piggyback. Max boost is 11psi at sea level and I feel this is well within the acceptable reliability range of this engine...but who knows.
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      10-10-2007, 11:19 AM   #10
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I am thinking the SSTT is the way to go as well...easy removal...not super aggressive...I am leaning this way right now myself.
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      10-10-2007, 11:56 AM   #11
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Let's buy three!! I haven't been following the latest info on the various chips. I will assume that the TT is the most mild, AA is in the middle and Vishnu is the most agressive? Is the TT piggyback as well. I want to run different oil and distilled water with water wetter for one more track day to see where my temps are and then want to buy a chip and see if temps go up. Where are you thinking of buying your chip?
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      10-10-2007, 12:15 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sg335 View Post
Let's buy three!! I haven't been following the latest info on the various chips. I will assume that the TT is the most mild, AA is in the middle and Vishnu is the most agressive? Is the TT piggyback as well. I want to run different oil and distilled water with water wetter for one more track day to see where my temps are and then want to buy a chip and see if temps go up. Where are you thinking of buying your chip?
Either Jeff@Eurobahn or Jon@themshop. $599. It's a 2min install. Check the DIY board for the install by a forum member. It couldn't be easier.

I'm going to try Water Wetter as well. I'm changing out my breakin oil this weekend and will put German Castrol 0w30 in to see if there is any difference in oil temps. I'm told the GC 0w30 is factory fill in Europe and it meets API SM/CF and BMW LL-01. I also may try Redline 5w40 since this is still within the manual's spec.
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      10-10-2007, 12:52 PM   #13
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Dinan might be coming out with a larger oil cooler. A picture of it was shown on a work table.

A customer of ours did the Roval at CA Speedway and got a max temp. of just under 280F with factory oil cooler, Turbo Tuner, and ELF Solaris 5w-30 which is a LL-04 rated oil. He's going to try Redline 10w-40 next and see how that does.
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      10-10-2007, 04:19 PM   #14
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Man that sucks! You guys are talking about tracks that have large high speed areas. What happens when we go out to the Vegas outside track in the heat of summer? This could get scary and I'll get pissed if I do get limp mode
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      10-11-2007, 11:47 PM   #15
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Anyone in Phoenix run their 335 at FIR or PIR with the heat?
I feel I'll be screwed when I finally get on track.
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      10-12-2007, 07:43 AM   #16
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See.....there is at least one nice thing about Ohio weather. Looking forward to my remaining 50-60 degree track days
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      10-12-2007, 07:56 AM   #17
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SG...were you measurably faster using 2nd gear? Based on how our boost tapers off at high RPM's I found that I was actually slower on the infield if I chose 2nd for all corners except that hard right leading to the pit straight.

I have the TT and think it is great! It is not a piggyback at all but modifies the TMAP sensor signal to trick the stock ECU into adding boost. Unlike all of the piggyback solutions the TT requires no messing around with the stock wiring harness. Nothing needs to be disassembled. Unplug one sensor, and plug the TT in between the harness and the sensor. Voila!
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      10-12-2007, 10:43 AM   #18
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Remember, I did not drive the Roval circut but the infield only road course which has six additional low speed corners not run with the Roval. Second gear did provide much improvement coming out of the apex as you were in the power band well above 4500+rpm. I don't have a chip so I don't benefit from the extra torque at a lower range. I think maybe with the chip, there would be no need to downshift into second for most. The section I am talking about really needs a gear inbetween third and second to maximize speed. Changing the ring and pinion gear would also provide this variation and could be the next mod for some of the E9x people. Worked great on the E36. I am running a 3.46 on that car and is a significant improvement over the stock 3.1. I just don't know if anything is available yet for our cars.
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      10-12-2007, 10:46 AM   #19
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Guys, once I got V2 working properly, I'm seeing lower oil temps. I was the one who had limp issues on track last time and couldn't go over 6000rpms. I didn't go over 275 whereas I normally go to 290 no problem. In general, given the power band of this car, not going over 6000 rpms wasn't too big of a hindrance, since I'd normally shift around there anyways.

Now that my V2 issues are sorted out, I'm headed back to the track next month and will report back to see if going to redline everywhere still results in these lower oil temps.
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      10-12-2007, 11:52 AM   #20
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is your car AT?

2nd gear gives you more control around the apex by sacrificing engine temperature and fuel consumption (higher rpm).
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      10-12-2007, 01:39 PM   #21
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White05X3 - How do you like your TT and why did you choose that versus Proceed? I had a chance to talk to one of the TT designers and I'm interested. what have you seen as the positives and negatives.
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      10-12-2007, 05:46 PM   #22
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Randy,

I chose the TT for a few reasons.

1. Ease of installation. No matter how many times people tell me it is ok, I got very nervous about tearing the OE harness apart for something like Procede or JB. Most of the problems people seem to be having (but not all) with the Procede are installation errors.

2. Lack of complaints. You never read about people having trouble with the TT.

3. Cost. I live in LA...My average speed is never over 30 mph. I could have spent the extra $$$ but for what? As I found at CA Speedway, the limiting factor with this car is the loose nut behind the wheel, not the HP. This car has more than enough as is...To spend double for more HP that I wont use just did not make sense to me.

I am loathe to get into a Procede vs. everybody debate. I met Shiv and think the Procede is a great product! It was however not the right product for me.

If you want to drive my car let me know.

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