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View Poll Results: What brake option will you order?
M Carbon Ceramic 68 37.78%
OEM steel rotors 112 62.22%
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      11-23-2013, 12:21 PM   #1
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MCCB or Steel brakes?

For the sake of argument, let's say BMW prices the ///M Carbon Ceramic Brakesf (MCCB) the same as it is on the RS5 at $6000 even. It's $9,900 on an R8 and $9,250 on an M6. Would you get it?

See also: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/att...5&d=1384282542 (h/t "GregW Oregon")
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      11-23-2013, 12:50 PM   #2
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Depending on mileage. If it lasts at least 100k miles with corner carving and aggressive driving (assume no tracking, because I want to turn the E90 into a track car), I'll go for it. Anything less, Brembos or stoptechs.
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      11-23-2013, 01:02 PM   #3
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$6000---> Hell No, $600---> I'm in
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      11-23-2013, 01:10 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chill72 View Post
$6000---> Hell No, $600---> I'm in
Most steel front BBK kits are over $4000 and then you have to buy a decent set of pads for $350. $6000 is a great value for the technology, and you get the rears.

For the M3 you'd still want to ditch the OEM pads and go with Pagid RSC1:

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      11-27-2013, 05:57 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w
For the sake of argument, let's say BMW prices the ///M Carbon Ceramic Brakesf (MCCB) the same as it is on the RS5 at $6000 even. It's $9,900 on an R8 and $9,250 on an M6. Would you get it?

See also: http://f80.bimmerpost.com/forums/att...5&d=1384282542 (h/t "GregW Oregon")
Correct me if I'm wrong but the CC brake option on the RS5 is for the front disc and pads only, the rears are steel.
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      11-27-2013, 06:18 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Judah View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong but the CC brake option on the RS5 is for the front disc and pads only, the rears are steel.
Yup, front only.
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      11-27-2013, 07:03 PM   #7
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Good find guys. Damn so this is going to cost well over $8000.

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      11-27-2013, 08:43 PM   #8
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Well, you can look at it this way, eventually BMW will have the least expensive CC brake option due to their partnership with SGL which I believe supplies the entire VW group.
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      11-27-2013, 10:14 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
Most steel front BBK kits are over $4000 and then you have to buy a decent set of pads for $350. $6000 is a great value for the technology, and you get the rears.

For the M3 you'd still want to ditch the OEM pads and go with Pagid RSC1:
Not really getting your reasoning. F80/82 finally come with a fixed caliper (at least up front), so why would you need to get a BBK for it? All you'd really need are some track pads, which you'd also need for the CCB. Not sure how it'll be for BMW CCB, but on the Porsche kits, if you track with the street pads, you'll kill the rotors.

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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      11-27-2013, 10:48 PM   #10
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If they could give me twice the life of the standard setup with my usual 3-5 track days a year I am willing to spending 3 times the cost.
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      11-28-2013, 11:12 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richardg
If they could give me twice the life of the standard setup with my usual 3-5 track days a year I am willing to spending 3 times the cost.
I'm coming from a somewhat similar background to you, except I put about 8-10 trackdays a year on my M3. Personally, the only even benefit I'm really seeing from the CCB (unless you intend on significant power mods, which I won't) is the decreased rotating unsprung mass.

As far as the braking itself, at stock power levels (with high quality track/race pads and fluid) you will never see brake fade in standard 20-25 minute sessions. If we're looking past performance into economy, a set of new stock steel rotors can be bought at a pittance even if you're replacing them every season.

EDIT: I forgot about aesthetics, which are a legitimate factor. They DO look good.
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      11-28-2013, 11:44 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
Not really getting your reasoning. F80/82 finally come with a fixed caliper (at least up front), so why would you need to get a BBK for it? All you'd really need are some track pads, which you'd also need for the CCB. Not sure how it'll be for BMW CCB, but on the Porsche kits, if you track with the street pads, you'll kill the rotors.

.
If you track any car with street pads you will melt them, and the caliper will destroy the rotor. It only takes about about 100 laps for an intermediate driver. Ask me how I know.

I did 11 days on track this year. 1 set of front pads lasts exactly that long; the rears last about 18 track days. A steel BBK rotor lasts about 2-3x that long. I would expect the CCB to last me the life of the car, or about 40 track days in 5 years.

I run race pads 24/7/365.
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      11-28-2013, 12:21 PM   #13
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I would include them.
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      11-28-2013, 06:19 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-m-w View Post
If you track any car with street pads you will melt them, and the caliper will destroy the rotor. It only takes about about 100 laps for an intermediate driver. Ask me how I know.

I did 11 days on track this year. 1 set of front pads lasts exactly that long; the rears last about 18 track days. A steel BBK rotor lasts about 2-3x that long. I would expect the CCB to last me the life of the car, or about 40 track days in 5 years.

I run race pads 24/7/365.
I'm just saying you probably won't gain much with an aftermarket BBK vs. the stock caliper/rotor since it's a multi-piston, fixed caliper now. You'd just need race pads. I'm thinking the stock rotors will be cheaper to replace than Brembo's, so it wouldn't save you much money to go CCB.
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Let me get this straight... You are swapping out parts designed by some of the top engineers in the world because some guys sponsored by a company told you it's "better??" But when you ask the same guy about tracking, "oh no, I have a kid now" or "I just detailed my car." or "i just got new tires."
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      11-29-2013, 11:03 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aus View Post
I'm just saying you probably won't gain much with an aftermarket BBK vs. the stock caliper/rotor since it's a multi-piston, fixed caliper now. You'd just need race pads. I'm thinking the stock rotors will be cheaper to replace than Brembo's, so it wouldn't save you much money to go CCB.
I see where you are going with this. I think you get a 10mm larger rotor and you may go from a 4 piston to a 6 piston up front. You also get a much larger pad shape. And the ceramic will dissipate heat a lot better, which is probably why it lasts longer.

I'd anticipate track driving would put 450 degrees F into the rotors, as measured after a cool down lap with a pyrometer. The CCB may come in 80+ degrees cooler.
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      12-02-2013, 12:14 PM   #16
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Since CCB would last pretty much the lifetime of the car with normal street use, the reduced maintenance would help me justify part of the cost
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      12-02-2013, 01:18 PM   #17
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having lived with ceramic brakes for past 3 years in a GT3 i would be willing to bet whatever the option cost is for them plan on doubling that cost for replacements. on the GT3 RS PCCB's cost $8k as an option. to replace just the rotors costs $16k. they wear out fairly quickly on the GT3 if you track frequently and the course involves a lot of hard braking. long straight to hairpin turns. sears point, laguna seca come to mind. also the pad compound is significantly softer to maximize the useful life of the ceramic rotors so with heavy usage the pads go very quickly. on the GT3 i can use up a set of pads in a weekend. replacement is when they are same thickness as the backing plate. all this on a car that weighs 400 lbs less. so if you intend to track the car a lot i suggest sticking to steels and replace them with PFC or another multipiece slotted floating rotor.
i don't think BMW is going to be replacing rotors if they think the car has been tracked and they will say they should last 100k miles. for me, i switch to steel rotors which are a direct fit and doesn't screw with the abs system. if the steel rotors are identical to ceramics hopefully its a viable option to select the ceramics when ordering and then shelving them.
as for feel, after driving both the steel braked cars and ceramic i can tell no difference in throttle response or braking. thats porsche though. with bmw ymmv.
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      12-02-2013, 01:23 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by karussell
having lived with ceramic brakes for past 3 years in a GT3 i would be willing to bet whatever the option cost is for them plan on doubling that cost for replacements. on the GT3 RS PCCB's cost $8k as an option. to replace just the rotors costs $16k. they wear out fairly quickly on the GT3 if you track frequently and the course involves a lot of hard braking. long straight to hairpin turns. sears point, laguna seca come to mind. also the pad compound is significantly softer to maximize the useful life of the ceramic rotors so with heavy usage the pads go very quickly. on the GT3 i can use up a set of pads in a weekend. replacement is when they are same thickness as the backing plate. all this on a car that weighs 400 lbs less. so if you intend to track the car a lot i suggest sticking to steels and replace them with PFC or another multipiece slotted floating rotor.
i don't think BMW is going to be replacing rotors if they think the car has been tracked and they will say they should last 100k miles. for me, i switch to steel rotors which are a direct fit and doesn't screw with the abs system. if the steel rotors are identical to ceramics hopefully its a viable option to select the ceramics when ordering and then shelving them.
as for feel, after driving both the steel braked cars and ceramic i can tell no difference in throttle response or braking. thats porsche though. with bmw ymmv.


The man knows what he's talking about.
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      12-02-2013, 01:35 PM   #19
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also for the guys that still want to track with ceramics invest in studs or at least a couple wheel mount guides. learn the ceramic butt shuffle as you wiggle your wheels over those fragile rotors. be very very careful not to ding that ceramic rotor with your wheels when changing them out. chipping one will be likely be an expensive mistake. as in enough to just buy an E36 M3 for tracking. also if you end up in kitty litter check front and rear sides of rotors for chips. you will get very used to examining them all the time. at least don't have to worry about delamination like in the early days of the GT2.
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      12-02-2013, 01:43 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapper_M3 View Post


The man knows what he's talking about.
Except that the M5 CCB are expected to last the life of the car with street use, according to the M5 guys. So if you don't track the car, there will be some recoup in maintenance costs, assuming they are probably similar to the M5 brakes.
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      12-02-2013, 02:17 PM   #21
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Sooo... If CCB is NOT reccomended for track use, then whats the point? This level of unsprung mass would only really only count AT THE TRACK. But everybody is saying not to use them at the track because they will be too expensive to replace?

I am really curious to see how willing BMW is to replace them if they get chipped or have been tracked?
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      12-02-2013, 02:38 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by absoluteis350 View Post
Except that the M5 CCB are expected to last the life of the car with street use, according to the M5 guys. So if you don't track the car, there will be some recoup in maintenance costs, assuming they are probably similar to the M5 brakes.
some recoup in maintenance costs is hardly a value proposition for paying $9K more for a function the car will already perform quite well on the street.

The M5's carbon ceramic brakes are made with a thin layer of friction material and it will wear out over time. "service life of the vehicle" you mention is very vague. certainly they will last longer than steel rotors but the difference narrows significantly with heavier use.

The M5's front rotors are 38mm thick. the friction material is a tiny fraction of that. according to that vehicles documenation the minimum servicable thickness is 37.85mm. there is also a minimum weight and visable wear indicators.

the properties of carbon ceramic brakes that make them cool is they are about half the weight of iron disks. In the M5's case they are 13 lbs lighter per corner. on the street that equates to nil. on track you won't notice the difference. changing tires would be far more noticeable. trade off is they are expensive, more fragile, and with the friction layer design wear quite fast in race environment. you won't find a street car based racing series using them outside of porsche supercup and all those guys would gladly go with steels if they had a choice.

choose them because they are cool technology. be realistic about it though. i did and i don't regret it, but i won't order them again. don't fool yourself into thinking they provide any tangible benefit other than lightening your wallet.
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