[Josh1a1h]

Ok.....

There have been a lot of the same questions regarding stock control arms or the M3 control arm upgrade, as of late and WHAT BLOODY SPECS YOU SHOULD HAVE YOUR CAR ALIGNED TOO!!!

There is conflicting info and results all over. So i am hoping people who have had done any of the above to chime in and give their 2 pennies worth on what they have experienced.


Personally I am in two minds right now.
My control arms bush's are completely gone. I have terrible steering wheel wobble upon braking and my car feels floaty at speeds and extra play in the wheel too.
Upgrading to M3 arms makes sense as you get the stiffer bushings and extra camber which results in better turn in and overall better handling.
But I do not track thes car, Comfort on the streets is paramount and so stiffer bushings may not be ideal or necessary. BUT i do like the idea of running extra camber, which people are able to do especially if you have adjustable top hats which you get with BC or Meister Coilovers. Can you achieve better turn in with just adjusting the camber?



Over on the M3 side of the forum they have a similar thread sharing their specs and thoughts. So copy, paste and fill out the below and then share your thoughts.

What Bimmer model do you own?
Stock arms or M3 arms?
Stock alignment settings or M3 settings?
Any extra degrees of camber?
If you replaced your arms, where did you get them from?

And share your thoughts on the ride and handling.



For you lot that are unfamiliar of the benefits of going to M3 arms... in short
For better handling of a non-M 3 series the M control arms and wishbones add some negative camber to the front end of the car, sharpening the steering response and further eliminating understeer.
To implement this upgrade you need:

M3 front upper control arms (thrust arm, tension strut) (31102283575 and 31102283576)
The upper control arms eliminate the fluid-filled stock bushing which is very prone to leaking the fluid and cease being effective. The solid rubber M3 bushing is also a bit stiffer for more precise steering and control.
M3 front lower control arms (wishbone) (31102283577 and 31102283578)
The M3 lower control arm has a sealed inner bearing instead of the rubber-isolated stock bushing. The bearing allows the lower arm to rotate freely instead of binding up. It's also a bit longer and curved slightly to give more negative camber (adds .75 of negative camber).
M3 headlight adjusting rod (37142283867)
Replaces the stock rod on cars with xenon headlights.

[Ajerthan]

steering wheel wobble upon braking from high speed to is due the arms? Not related to anything else? I also have this issue.

[Lawton438]

How can I test or see if my bushings are shot?

As my car has always felt unstable and very floaty at the front end when driving hard but as this is my first 3 series I just thought that's how they drove :/

[Josh1a1h]

Originally Posted by Ajerthan

steering wheel wobble upon braking from high speed to is due the arms? Not related to anything else? I also have this issue.

Steering wheel wobble can be possible warped discs as well, but control arms are usually the culprit. BMW are notorious for these failing bush's

Originally Posted by Lawton438

How can I test or see if my bushings are shot?

As my car has always felt unstable and very floaty at the front end when driving hard but as this is my first 3 series I just thought that's how they drove :/

They should be leaking.
Standard bushs are liquid filled.
M3 bushs are rubber.
You can also test by wedging a breaker bar in between the arms etc and prying at them to see how much play is in the bushs. If there is a lot of movement then they need to be done.

[Lawton438]

Cheers josh, where's the best place to purchase the arms from if mine need replacing?

[old grey steve]

Interesting topic this, I changed my lower arms about 3/4 weeks ago knew the signs(tap the brake pedal you'll feel a slight shudder and at speed it'll feel slightly light/nervous more so if left too long-worse case I've seen is when crawling in our workshop when the brakes are touched you can actually see the wheel move back in the arch)

I went standard for pure simplicity reasons but there's grounds in the future to change for M3 spec though another option out there could be these arms from SuperPro that I did look at. www.superpro.eu.com

There arms offer a more defined solution to the dreaded arm issue that comes up fro time to time, by replacing the rubber/liquid filled bushes with poly bushes they solve one issue long term then by offering the lower arm/radius arms as a kit the lower arms have an eccentric bolt arrangement so you are actually able to carryout camber adjustment without too much grief on the car and the radius arms allow caster adjustment too. At £360 ish there not bad value say long term.

I was 50/50 on this hence I stuck to standard but the above offers a grist deal of scope. Worthy of further investigation perhaps the biggest thing for me was this, you can have all the equipment you like but with so many adjustment positions with cast/camber for me it can go well or horribly wrong for me it's all in the setup and for now OE and OE setup will do for now.

[Josh1a1h]

I do not want to go the poly bush route as they are known to knock out your fillings and are much harsher than the M3 rubber bush's..


So @phil200tdi, @Idnan and others who have this setup? Can you please chime in and share your final thoughts and setups now that you have lived with it for a short while

MANY THANKS

[whateva411]

Originally Posted by Josh1a1h

I do not want to go the poly bush route as they are known to knock out your fillings and are much harsher than the M3 rubber bush's..


So @phil200tdi, @Idnan and others who have this setup? Can you please chime in and share your final thoughts and setups now that you have lived with it for a short while

MANY THANKS

I was speaking to Idnan shortly before I had my lower arms replaced with 335i arms and he was saying that he would definitely recommend m3 arms as it allows better turn in and it wasn't much more firmer than the 335i arms.

[old grey steve]

Originally Posted by Josh1a1h

I do not want to go the poly bush route as they are known to knock out your fillings and are much harsher than the M3 rubber bush's..


So @phil200tdi, @Idnan and others who have this setup? Can you please chime in and share your final thoughts and setups now that you have lived with it for a short while

MANY THANKS

yep ploys are a non compromising item had my old E46 done throughout and they were harder for sure but not overly harsh but a bit of comfort is what I'd go for hence the reason or one of the reasons why I overlooked them. But in hindsight I wish I'd opted for M3 arms now

[Josh1a1h]

I am heading in the M3 direction.

BUT There is a lot of contradicting info about how you should align the car.

Do you use 335i specs or M3 specs...

Or do you use m3 specs on front and 335i specs on the rear....

This is what we need to know.

[old grey steve]

Originally Posted by Josh1a1h

I am heading in the M3 direction.

BUT There is a lot of contradicting info about how you should align the car.

Do you use 335i specs or M3 specs...

Or do you use m3 specs on front and 335i specs on the rear....

This is what we need to know.

its very difficult I wouldn't know which direction to take but something tells me even bough the M3's track is wider that setting it up as an M3 will mean it won't be too far out yet again will setting it up as a standard 335 be a bad thing?

[phil200tdi]

The reason to buy the arms in the first place is to improve the turn in. Adding more negative camber beyond those offered by the standard arms..

The bushes are firmer. I went with m3 specs when I fitted the front. Fitted the rear recently myself and haven't had it aligned yet - seems fine as is..

[Josh1a1h]

Originally Posted by phil200tdi

The reason to buy the arms in the first place is to improve the turn in. Adding more negative camber beyond those offered by the standard arms..

The bushes are firmer. I went with m3 specs when I fitted the front. Fitted the rear recently myself and haven't had it aligned yet - seems fine as is..

Thanks for chiming in Phil

So what settings would you recommend for alignment? I have just bought some m3 arms and i am curious what i should settings should be used to align too?

M3 settings?

335i msport settings?
i may add some more camber too

[Hotcoupe]

.

Originally Posted by Josh1a1h

What Bimmer model do you own?
It was a 335D
Stock arms or M3 arms?
M3
Stock alignment settings or M3 settings?
M3
Any extra degrees of camber?
No, stock M3 settings
If you replaced your arms, where did you get them from?
The local BMW dealer

And share your thoughts on the ride and handling.
Sharper feel to the steering and a greatly improved turn in.
Whether you track a car or not,it's a mod worth investing in.

[gaza01]

So is the benefit just the additional camber that you get with the m3 arms - that in turn gives you sharper turn in?

Im asking because my bc coils have a camber top plate mount so i could just sort the camber out from there?

[AlanYoro35i]

wouldn't more negative camber setting increase uneven wear?

i search the forum before and found the m3 rear doesn't have as much negative camber than our stock 335i and because they use normal tyres , i opted the m3 settings and my tyres last much longer!

[Josh1a1h]

Originally Posted by Yoro35i

wouldn't more negative camber setting increase uneven wear?

i search the forum before and found the m3 rear doesn't have as much negative camber than our stock 335i and because they use normal tyres , i opted the m3 settings and my tyres last much longer!

No Camber doesnt kill tyres... Toe does.

Can't be true about your rear end mate... I heard m3 has more toe in teh rear so should eat your tyres a little more.

Did yo setup m3 settings for up front too? or just rear?

[Josh1a1h]

Originally Posted by phil200tdi

The reason to buy the arms in the first place is to improve the turn in. Adding more negative camber beyond those offered by the standard arms..

The bushes are firmer. I went with m3 specs when I fitted the front. Fitted the rear recently myself and haven't had it aligned yet - seems fine as is..

Phil can you please share you experience...

Did you go full m3 specs or did you tone it down and go with regular m sport specs for alignment?

Cheers

[old grey steve]

Wish I'd got em now all very interesting once you've got them sorted a Josh and I'm sure you will please post your findings but looking at what I've read going M3 setup should have you on the money.

[Josh1a1h]

Originally Posted by old grey steve

Wish I'd got em now all very interesting once you've got them sorted a Josh and I'm sure you will please post your findings but looking at what I've read going M3 setup should have you on the money.

Yes mate... but i have heard conflicting arguements...

Some say that M3 settings are too aggressive and gives terrible handling for a NON M...

But some say it does work...

Some in the states say install M3 arms but align to Msport specs....

SO I AM UTTERLY BAFFLED...

[seanblee]

Sorry, this has turned into a bit of a missive!

Originally Posted by Josh1a1h

No Camber doesnt kill tyres... Toe does.

Very true. I see lots of posts with pictures of tyres with very obvious shoulder scrubbing that gets blamed on camber, which is just wrong - excessive camber will wear the tread unevenly across the tyre, but only excessive toe will scrub just the shoulder back to the cords whilst leaving the rest of the tread unworn.

Originally Posted by Josh1a1h

Can't be true about your rear end mate... I heard m3 has more toe in teh rear so should eat your tyres a little more.

That's not correct - the M3 runs less front and rear toe-in than the 335i, which improves turn-in responsiveness, but makes the car more prone to tramlining and following road imperfections.

Originally Posted by Josh1a1h

SO I AM UTTERLY BAFFLED...

The alignment specs we use are static specs, chosen to bring the car as close as possible to ideal geometry under load. For example, regarding camber, the ideal is to keep the tyre surface perfectly flat on the road (i.e. zero camber). However, as you go around a corner, the dynamic camber shift from the body rolling causes the outside tyre to roll over onto its outer edge. To combat this, we run negative static camber in order to keep the outside tyre flat on the road under load.

The M3 runs alignment specs closer to zero than the standard 335i for two reasons:
- it has stiffer bushes (or, in some cases, rose joints in place of bushes) and springs that cause less dynamic shift in the static alignment specs
- it's sold as a more sporting car so they don't need to compromise the handling quite so much to give a comfortable, well-behaved car on uneven road surfaces.

On the front, if you fit the M3 tension strut and wishbone, you've effectively replaced all of the bushes that control geometry with the M3 equivalents, so it makes perfect sense to run M3 front specs. On the rear, to get to M3 levels of stiffness, you'd need to replace the
- upper guide rod
- upper wishbone
- lower camber link
- toe arm
- springs
- anti-roll bar

If you've changed only some of these parts, you'll need to compromise on settings somewhere in between.

[phil200tdi]

Sorry I'm on a mini moon - got married on Thursday!

Sean's advice above is sound.. I haven't realigned since fitting the rear arms...