Pandora Car Alarm System
BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   BMW M3 and BMW M4 Forum > BMW F80 M3 / F82 M4 Forum > BMW M3 (F80) and BMW M4 (F82) General Forum

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      08-01-2013, 12:37 PM   #1
KASM3
Lieutenant
160
Rep
466
Posts

Drives: 2015 M4
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: NC

iTrader: (0)

ZF vs DCT in new M3/M4

For the more knowledgable out there. I have read some great reviews on the new 8 speed ZF tranny in vehicles in excess of 400 HP and comparable torque. The extra gearing improves fuel estimates and I have seen great comments on shift speeds being almost imperceptible. Wouldn't it be prudent for BMW to use this in the upcoming M vs the 7 speed DCT? Is there an advantage to the DCT? Anyone in the please let me know.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 12:47 PM   #2
solstice
Major General
5457
Rep
7,037
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

I had the ZF in my F10. It shifts pretty fast but this is still a slush box and shifting manually feels just as meaningless and uninspiring as any slush box. The DCT is faster but it's main advantage for me is that it actually feels natural and inspiring to shift manually and I don't think the ZF is capable of the glorious throttle blips with the Getrag DCT. Sad thing is I haven't heard any of those blips from the F8X videos
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 12:48 PM   #3
mkoesel
Moderator
United_States
7506
Rep
19,370
Posts

Drives: No BMW for now
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Canton, MI

iTrader: (1)

For right now, my understanding is that the DCT still offers the better experience for high performance driving situations.

As far as fuel efficiency, I don't think there is a vehicle that offers a seven speed DCT and an eight speed planetary box, so it would be difficult to get an apples to apples comparison. Generally, DCT's have gained popularity lately due to being more efficient than a slush box. However there are many variables that could tip that the other way.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 01:05 PM   #4
CanAutM3
General
CanAutM3's Avatar
Canada
21105
Rep
20,741
Posts

Drives: 2021 911 turbo
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Montreal

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
The ZF 8 speed still has a torque converter, which is the main contributor to the "disconnected" feel of traditional automatic gearboxes. From my perspective, I feel the same connection from the engine to the wheels in a DCT compared to a standard manual. This makes sporty driving much more enjoyable.

The counterpoint is that the "disconect", through the viscous fluid in the torque converter, also contributes to make an "automatic" transmission much smoother in operation compared to DCT.

Better fuel economy could be achieved by making the 7th gear in the DCT much longer while keeping the ratio from 1 to 6 closely spaced. Who uses 7th at the track anyway .
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 02:23 PM   #5
NISFAN
Major General
NISFAN's Avatar
United Kingdom
3486
Rep
9,709
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

iTrader: (0)

One thing for sure, an Auto has never been so close to a DCT as it is today with the ZF8.

To answer the question.......drive a C63 AMG. It is fitted with the Mercedes 7G Tronic auto, but with torque converter clutch over ride (similar to ZF8). I would definitely say the ZF8 is even Sportier than the Mercedes auto, as it locks up in every gear from 30mph, so has a 'manual - direct' type feel, and has quicker shift speeds.

Anyway, although the C63 box is OK, it just isn't as Sporty as the DCT.

ZF8 will be closer to DCT, and almost unnoticeable on upshifts, but downshifts are always going to be 'blends' rather than real cog swapping IMO.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 02:45 PM   #6
gblansten
Brigadier General
gblansten's Avatar
1913
Rep
4,171
Posts

Drives: 23 Tesla S Plaid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

ZF won't be as good as a DCT. If BMW does a ZF I'd probably skip the M4. I don't think they will offer the ZF though.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 03:17 PM   #7
swamp2
Lieutenant General
swamp2's Avatar
United_States
609
Rep
10,407
Posts

Drives: E92 M3
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: San Diego, CA USA

iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by NISFAN View Post
One thing for sure, an Auto has never been so close to a DCT as it is today with the ZF8.

To answer the question.......drive a C63 AMG. It is fitted with the Mercedes 7G Tronic auto, but with torque converter clutch over ride (similar to ZF8). I would definitely say the ZF8 is even Sportier than the Mercedes auto, as it locks up in every gear from 30mph, so has a 'manual - direct' type feel, and has quicker shift speeds.

Anyway, although the C63 box is OK, it just isn't as Sporty as the DCT.

ZF8 will be closer to DCT, and almost unnoticeable on upshifts, but downshifts are always going to be 'blends' rather than real cog swapping IMO.
Yep, right on.

Automatics are progressing just like DCTs are. I'd say that automatics have actually progressed more than DCTs in the last 5 years. The full locking feature of new high end automatics has substantially helped both feel (more like MT/DCT) and efficiency. That being said I give a small edge to the DCT for both feel and efficiency.
__________________
E92 M3 | Space Gray on Fox Red | M-DCT | CF Roof | RAC RG63 Wheels | Brembo 380mm BBK |
| Vorsteiner Ti Exhaust | Matte Black Grilles/Side Gills/Rear Emblem/Mirrors |
| Alekshop Back up Camera | GP Thunders | BMW Aluminum Pedals | Elite Angels |
| XPEL Full Front Wrap | Hardwired V1 | Interior Xenon Light Kit |
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 06:35 PM   #8
gblansten
Brigadier General
gblansten's Avatar
1913
Rep
4,171
Posts

Drives: 23 Tesla S Plaid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by swamp2 View Post
Yep, right on.

Automatics are progressing just like DCTs are. I'd say that automatics have actually progressed more than DCTs in the last 5 years. The full locking feature of new high end automatics has substantially helped both feel (more like MT/DCT) and efficiency. That being said I give a small edge to the DCT for both feel and efficiency.
Agreed but if you drive mainly in manual mode the autos are still not at the level of the DCT transmissions. And are not as satisfying to drive.
Appreciate 0
      08-01-2013, 08:49 PM   #9
GreenLantern
Lieutenant
GreenLantern's Avatar
United_States
101
Rep
487
Posts

Drives: 991.2 GT3
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Palm Springs, CA

iTrader: (0)

I can attest to the multi-clutch automatic in my C63 Black Series. It sure feels crazy close to a DCT to me, and I'm quite impressed with how far automatics have come. I do agree that it's still not a DCT (and that's part of why you see the DCT in the SLS, SLS GT, and SLS Black Series).

Here's a (slightly cheesy, but still mildly informative) video about the AMG MCT transmission:

Last edited by GreenLantern; 08-01-2013 at 09:40 PM..
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2013, 01:00 PM   #10
Thurman Murch
Lieutenant
Seychelles
62
Rep
499
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Island in the sun

iTrader: (0)

I drove 400 miles in a new 550i with the ZF. Not impressed at all. Sure its smooth, but felt like a grandmother car. I much prefer the DCT it's the second best thing to a manual at the moment. The reason to go for the 335is or M3/4/5/6 otherwise just get the manual.
Appreciate 0
      08-03-2013, 01:06 PM   #11
Thurman Murch
Lieutenant
Seychelles
62
Rep
499
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Island in the sun

iTrader: (0)

I thought the new M3/M4 would have an 8 speed M-DCT. And down the road offer a 7-gear manual.
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2013, 04:24 PM   #12
ixse
Major
238
Rep
1,022
Posts

Drives: 2015 boxster s
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: CA

iTrader: (0)

It doesnt matter what they go with. Because manual is still offered
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2013, 04:55 PM   #13
Boss330
Major General
Boss330's Avatar
No_Country
1712
Rep
5,108
Posts

Drives: BMW
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Earth

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thurman Murch View Post
I thought the new M3/M4 would have an 8 speed M-DCT. And down the road offer a 7-gear manual.
Let's hope not a 7-speed manual... Porsche's attempt at a 7-speed manual has been voted one of the worst transmission ideas in auto history...
Appreciate 1
SYT_Shadow11421.00
      08-10-2013, 05:10 PM   #14
gblansten
Brigadier General
gblansten's Avatar
1913
Rep
4,171
Posts

Drives: 23 Tesla S Plaid
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Thick ascending limb

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boss330 View Post
Let's hope not a 7-speed manual... Porsche's attempt at a 7-speed manual has been voted one of the worst transmission ideas in auto history...
I've seen mainly positive reviews of the Porsche 7 speed manual.
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2013, 05:42 PM   #15
RMB
Captain
RMB's Avatar
United_States
97
Rep
635
Posts

Drives: 2018 Audi TTRS
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Virginia

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
I currently own a 6 speed manual in my GTI. My Porsche has an 8 speed automatic. I have had a ton of manuals and nothing is as fast as the DCT in my previous S4 or the M3. I don't feel that manuals are more connected to a car, and I am happy to go around you with a DCT on any course. Long live the dual clutch, check out Porsche or Nissan GTR if you beg to differ!
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2013, 06:13 PM   #16
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
drob23's Avatar
United_States
50
Rep
1,730
Posts

Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (1)

Agree with the DCT sentiment here. The auto is great, but it's still quite easy to feel the "slush" when you gun it in manual mode. It's not necessarily the "speed of shift" but it's the grab and impulse of acceleration that really sets them apart - blipping the throttle to rev match.

Did the BMW UDE thing and drove a 640, 328ix and A7 all with the same ZF8. They all felt markedly sluggish compared to my s-tronic, which as I learned here, is not even up to par with what Audi has on the R8 or RS5. GIAC is offering a tune for the B8 S4 dsg which supposedly makes shifts much quicker and removes some of hunting. I've never driven the M-DCT, so can't comment on the comparison.

A DCT is not without fault though, it can sometimes shift awkwardly at low speed, mostly cause it has to guess what your left foot would be doing.
Appreciate 0
      08-10-2013, 06:21 PM   #17
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
drob23's Avatar
United_States
50
Rep
1,730
Posts

Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLantern View Post
Here's a (slightly cheesy, but still mildly informative) video about the AMG MCT transmission
Don't get me wrong, your car is an absolute monster as are all AMG's, but that video is pretty hilarious at the 2:00 part "race start...take off like a racing car"
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2013, 11:21 AM   #18
BRAISKI
Colonel
BRAISKI's Avatar
Canada
133
Rep
2,517
Posts

Drives: '11 335xi e92 M-Pak
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: GTA/KW, Canada

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335xi  [7.00]
Can someone please educate me on what a ZF is?
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2013, 11:48 AM   #19
NISFAN
Major General
NISFAN's Avatar
United Kingdom
3486
Rep
9,709
Posts

Drives: BMW M2
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Bedford UK

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAISKI View Post
Can someone please educate me on what a ZF is?
ZF is a German gearbox manufacturer. The ZF8 is the latest 8 speed box that people are referring to. Google ZF8HP
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2013, 12:20 PM   #20
turbolag
is nonexistent with N/A
turbolag's Avatar
21
Rep
1,126
Posts

Drives: .
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: .

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BRAISKI View Post
Can someone please educate me on what a ZF is?
The ZF8 is the new (also best) slushbox in BMWs. It's an 8-spd automatic, known for its seamless shifting. It can be equipped with paddles on BMW, which come with the Sport Automatic option (higher shift points). It's the transmission used in iirc the B8.5 Audi A4, C7 Audi A6/7, A8, Q5, Q7, RS6/7, and non-PDK Porsche Cayennes/Panameras.
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2013, 12:38 PM   #21
solstice
Major General
5457
Rep
7,037
Posts

Drives: 2015 M3 6MT
Join Date: May 2013
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (0)

Porsche uses Aisin ( Japanese, partly Toyota owned ) 8-speed ATs not ZF. Cayennes are Aisin only ( or MT ), the PDK is not suitable for towing and off-roading. The PDK in the Panamera however is from ZF ( The AT in the Panny hybrid is from Aisin )
BMW's DCT is from Getrag ( German ).

ZF makes more than transmissions, they for example also make the ARS systems that BMW uses in some models.

Last edited by solstice; 08-11-2013 at 12:52 PM..
Appreciate 0
      08-11-2013, 08:01 PM   #22
drob23
Lieutenant Colonel
drob23's Avatar
United_States
50
Rep
1,730
Posts

Drives: S4
Join Date: Oct 2012
Location: Michigan

iTrader: (1)

The ZF boxes are also somewhat modular, in that they can be mated with different type of torque converters and in different packages. ZF is working with Chrysler on a ZF9 which is supposed to be on the new grand Cherokee and I think the Ram. ZF is a German automotive supplier that makes all kinds of things, similar to TRW, Continental, Bosch, Borg Warner etc.

One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that DCT's tend to have lower torque/HP ratings. Audi (who are pretty anti manual) use the ZF slushboxes on their top of the line models like S7, S8, RS6, RS7 (I could be wrong on some of those).

Edit - just realized the M5 uses a DCT, so torque limits of Audi S-tronic is probably more that their DCT's aren't as capable as the M-DCT.

Last edited by drob23; 08-11-2013 at 08:07 PM..
Appreciate 0
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:38 PM.




f80post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST