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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > Track Review: Procede V1.47, Stoptech BBK, others... (long)



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      12-04-2007, 10:14 PM   #1
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Track Review: Procede V1.47, Stoptech BBK, others... (long)

Took the car up to Road Atlanta last weekend to what will probably be the last [strike]Panoz[/strike] Barber open track day. There's a whole other topic there, but I'll leave that for another thread.

For those of you who have never been there, RA is a 2.54 mile 12 turn road course. It has something like 1500 ft of elevation changes. A top down view just doesn't do it justice. I recommend youtube cart videos so you can see the track better. Not lifting through turn 12 will put hair on your chest (yes, even the ladies.) With good corner exit speed in 7, I can regularly hit high 140's before the braking zone in 10a. Here's a kart video:



My track mods:
Procede v1.47
Quaife LSD
PSS9's (4 front, 3 rear)
UUC sways, front set to medium and rear set to stiffest
Custom Magnaflow cat-back exhaust
Volk RE30s
Nitto NT-01s (245 fronts 275 rears)
Corner balanced: 50.4/49.6 front to rear 50/50 side to side
with me in the car and 1/2 tank of gas 3660lbs.

Background

Unlike others on this board, I'm not an instructor level driver. My first track event was March of this year, and I now have 8 days under my belt at three tracks. Haven't been to RA since August when it was 103F in the paddock. I love this track. This weekend, it was cold on both days. Temps started in the 40's and never got above 65F. Sunday morning was especially cold. I drove in B group, but should have listened to my friends and moved up to A (more on this later.)

Mod Review
Quaife - If you track, get it. Period. I didn't have it in August and it made a world of difference this weekend
PSS9s - Like the ease of adjustment. Haven't run on KW's, but I don't feel like I'm missing anything.
UUC Sways - Moved the front sway up to the medium position for this weekend. Had run at the softest position in August. Noticeable improvement in body roll going through all the harsher curves (5, 7, 12) and going over the rumble strips in the 3 to set up for 4.
Custom Magnaflow Exhaust - I can't understand why people buy pre-fab stuff when you can get EXACTLY what you want out of a good shop for the same price. None of this "I like brand X mufflers, but I prefer brand Y crossovers." Why compromise? For the record, I have 2.5in true dual with double-wall tips.
Volks - Do you guys seriously need to read my review telling you that 16.5lb 18" monoforged VOLK's are good wheels? Let your mind at ease. It is so. (what's wrong with you?)
Nitto's - Bought these tires after reading on the net that these were basically RA1's with a lower price tag and they lasted without needing as much coaxing as PSCs to heat up. I started this event with 18 heat cycles on them and they ran the last session Sunday as well as they have any time previously. Still have tread on them after putting 8 more cycles on them this weekend, and I drive these to and from events (including to Barber.) I may change to PSC's next time just to compare and I'd run any timed events on Hoosiers, but I have no complaints about the Nittos. They speak nicely when at the limit. Not for the street as they are loud in cruise conditions.
Stoptech BBKStoptech recommended that I run Hawk DTC-70 pads up front after a phone call from a local tuner, who basically does all my non-drivetrain mods. Gave them the car, weight, power, my driving speeds at RA, etc and that's what they came back with. It worked. I could routinely start my braking at the 180ft mark going into 10a (which is a 90 degree left hander at the bottom of a hill) at 140mph with a 200lb passenger in the car with room to spare. These brakes rock. I scared a friend of mine who runs 1:33s at this track.
Procede 1.47
Read further to learn why I like this mod...

Saturday
Started the day off bad... as in I didn't leave work Friday night until 3am Saturday morning. Overslept and missed the driver's meeting and first session on purpose because I figured it would be better to show up rested and hope they let me drive anyway rather than show up on time and drive tired on 2 hours of sleep. They agreed and let me drive, Yay!

Spent the first session trying to find my line again. Boy did I suck. Braking too late into 3, missing apexs. Fought the car. Passed some people, but had to give more pointby's than I feel like my skill level should necessitate. Got my head back after about the 3rd lap. "Smooth, just be smooth. What you're doing wrong will come to you." Ignored everyone/thing else the rest of the session and focused on me. Things were coming together, then my last time through the back straight... limp mode!!! Came back in. Thought about it. Gas? I always get 93 and only at multi-hose stations, but I mixed in some 98 just in case. Did the 3rd gear pulls suggested in the V2.02 instructions, and had no more problems the rest of the day.

Went back out the second session and things started coming together. Noteables: Got behind a CTS-V which I later found out had a cam, exhaust and tune. Owner says he's pushing just over 500hp at the crank. He couldn't pull on me down the back straight because my corner exit speed in 7 was better than his. He should have pointed me by on the front, but he waited until after 5. Oh well, notch in the belt.

3rd session, it was coming together nicely. I was passing almost everyone. Had a fun time with a gutted, race-prepped RX7 with a V8 engine swap and came out the victor. Once I got by him, he was completely out of my mirrors half a lap later.

Sunday

1st session: Damn it was cold. My friend let me borrow his trackmate to see what my times were. Some people showed up Sunday that hadn't been there Sat (the schedule allows for more time on Sundays.) Lined up second in the pits behind an M roaster vert, 996 C2 behind me, and e36 M3 with PSS9s behind him. Going to be interesting... The guy in the roadster looks at my car and says, "I guess I'll be pointing you buy pretty quickly." I tell him, truthfully, that I'm going to lay off until the afternoon. We have 6 sessions on Sunday and there's no reason to go all out straight into the first one. Yet... 1st open lap, he points me by in 5 and I never see any of the other guys. Got a 1:52 on the trackmate on my only open lap, not my best time at this track, and run 1:55's in traffic so I KNOW I can do better. Go back to the pits and the tires are barely even luke warm. End up having to give the trackmate back becuase my friend runs the rest of the day.

2-4th session go much like the 1st. I'm passing everyone and no one is passing me unless I'm on an off lap. The Limp modes come back. I'm getting them down the back straight where I'm winding up through 3rd, 4th and 5th up to ~140mph. Sounds like a classic need for LBT map, but I'm a dumbass and didn't bring my lap top. Spend the rest of the day trying to baby it down the back straight and dog it through the corners to make up.

5th session: Drewko shows up for a ride and I'm at my best. We line up with the M Roadster, an STi, a 993, a 996C4 and a 997t in front of us. The M roadster and the STi fall by the wayside rather quickly. The 993 and C4 follow on the next couple of laps... then I smell bragging rights. We've caught up to the back of the pack and ahead lies a Ford GT which I haven't been able to catch all day. He's tuned to 615whp. He's meh in the corners, but can run down the straights like.. a Ford GT? Reel him in coming out of 5, and then as I'm rounding 9 i see the 997t just turning into 10a.. YES!!! Get to the bottom of the hill.... Limp mode!!! NOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!oneoneoneeleven... pit lane. stop. restart. limp gone and head back out til I'm nearly out of gas.

Retrospect
I had an awesome time this weekend. I've improved quickly since I started tracking in March. Several people, including my friend who runs in the low 1:30's at RA in a 996T and a guy who pro-races in Europe that I just met this weekend, have all but demanded that I move myself up to the more advanced groups. The common quote is, "Even if you're the slowest guy in A group (which you won't be,) you'll have more fun than being the fastest guy in B group.

End of the day Sunday the Ford GT driver comes up and looks at my brakes and tires, points and says to his friend "Now I don't feel so bad." To me he says "You were really moving out there." I say thanks. Nice guy, but in what universe does a BBK and Nittos on a 335 equate to a tuned Ford GT that already has a BBK to begin with?

The limp modes seem to clearly indicate that I needed the LBT map for the track, and nothing more than that. No codes were registered on the code reader, and temps just weren't high enough to induce. Oil temps were a rock solid 160F. Also, no e90post thread titled, "Shiv, OMG Procede limp mode!!!elevenone~BBQ" I swear some people freak out over the littlest things sometimes /end rant

V2 got here today and after some delivery complications, I now have it in hand. Won't install it til this weekend due to schedule conflicts. Would have been cool to have had it this past weekend, but what can you do?

I'm seriously considering honing my skills and applying for a NASA TT license. My car would currently point out to TTB if my math is correct, and that is likely the same class that a lightly modded E92 M3 would qualify for. The track record for Road Atlanta in this class is 1:44:x, and the best laps I've been timed at so far are in the high 1:40's with a passenger. I think that record is within reach. It's not Bathurst, but good enough for my little corner of the world.
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      12-04-2007, 10:51 PM   #2
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That has to be one of the best if not the best write ups I have ever read on e90. Normally I see a post this long I just skim through it. This one I read every word. Well done sir!

Your car sounds like a beast. It's nice to have a car that is better then you are. You will become a better driver because of your car.

Very nice list of mods you have on your car.

I will be looking for your next write up

Edit: Just looked at your pics. HOLY SHIT. That is a gorgeous car. It looks fast sitting still
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      12-05-2007, 12:29 AM   #3
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Nice write up man...
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      12-05-2007, 07:41 AM   #4
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Really nice write-up! I also just starting going to track days this year, running weekends at Road Atlanta in March and July (with BMWCCA) and then I spent a day at Roebling Road in October with Seat-Time. I don't think I could run with you at RA! My 325i is totally stock, and I'm "only" hitting the low 120s down the back straight. I think my quicker lap times were just under two minutes, but nothing accurate and BMWCCA has a fair amout of traffic. Still, the car is a lot better than I am. One advantage of only having 215 hp - no limp mode...

Here's a video of me running in the noobie group in March... I got a point-by from a GT3, so needless to say, I was having a fun time.



I plan on running the three BMWCCA events at RA in 2008, so if you do the same, maybe I'll see you out there some time.

Very tough looking car by the way! Thanks for sharing.
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      12-05-2007, 08:57 AM   #5
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huh, I like it when somebody can write, want to write and actually takes his time and does it.

Really good write-up, like the story, envy all the fun tho

Thx
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      12-05-2007, 11:07 AM   #6
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All I can say is, Hegemony's car is a mutha fuka. I mean, I doubt very many folks have really pushed a tuned 335i like he did on that track....and his car is not simply tuned for more hp...the Bilstein/sways/Nitto combo stuck like glue. i could not believe the handling of the car compared to mine (stock). It was more than a night and day difference as we took turns between 60-80 mph.

And, the brakes were sick.

Hegemony was driving so well that the computer RARELY interfered at all. As an example, I wish you could have seen that f'in Ford GT in the straights...just unbelievable acceleration...you saw it for a second and boom, its smoking gone, but we caught up to it, and passed through the curves because Hegemony's set up is soooooo goood--he was able to take a tighter line through the sharp curve than the GT, or at least the GT driver did not know how to take the turn correctly, unlike Hegemony. He pierced through that turn and the car f'in held it so together and I'm smashed against the seat watching it unfold in pure joy!! If it had not been for the subsequent limp, we would have easily passed the upcoming Porsche ahead of us.

Wow, what a great experience. Tx for letting me sit along. I have wanted to race around RA for some time now. That track is a beast. I actually became nauseated from the G's. Next time I'm taking dramamine.
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      12-05-2007, 01:01 PM   #7
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Excellent write-up, that was a great read. I definitely need to start doing some suspension mods next.
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      12-05-2007, 01:05 PM   #8
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Man, that sounds awesome. Great writeup. Leaves me jonesing for the first event of 2008!

Did you just do the front BBK or all around? Did you run race pads all around? I ran ultra high friction coefficient pads just up front and the imbalance caused some really disconcerting wiggling when I was threshold braking.

If I was braking 8/10ths, I'd be fine but at 10/10ths, the tail just starts wiggling left and right.
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      12-05-2007, 01:31 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
Man, that sounds awesome. Great writeup. Leaves me jonesing for the first event of 2008!

Did you just do the front BBK or all around? Did you run race pads all around? I ran ultra high friction coefficient pads just up front and the imbalance caused some really disconcerting wiggling when I was threshold braking.

If I was braking 8/10ths, I'd be fine but at 10/10ths, the tail just starts wiggling left and right.
BBK all around. Race pads up front. Braking at 10/10ths did cause some shuttering, but I've been advised and found that only braking 8/10ths and carrying more momentum through the turn is actually the faster way through.

This advice came from my friend who ran a 1:34.6 on PSC's with me in the car on Sunday (the course record for his class, NASA TTU, is 1:32.58.) He later ran a 1:33.x after dropping me off. I tried his method and it works with no more wiggling. I'm probably going to stick with it until I get to a point where I can't go any faster. I'm the type who's lazy enough that if I can get away without having to change the rear pads, then I'm going to do that.

DrewKo, thanks for the kind words. Glad you could make it out.
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      12-05-2007, 01:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegemony View Post
BBK all around. Race pads up front. Braking at 10/10ths did cause some shuttering, but I've been advised and found that only braking 8/10ths and carrying more momentum through the turn is actually the faster way through.

This advice came from my friend who ran a 1:34.6 on PSC's with me in the car on Sunday (the course record for his class, NASA TTU, is 1:32.58.) He later ran a 1:33.x after dropping me off. I tried his method and it works with no more wiggling. I'm probably going to stick with it until I get to a point where I can't go any faster. I'm the type who's lazy enough that if I can get away without having to change the rear pads, then I'm going to do that.

DrewKo, thanks for the kind words. Glad you could make it out.
Hmmm, that doesn't make sense.

If you're braking at 8/10ths down to say 100mph, you'd have to start at say 200 ft. from the turn-in point. If you were braking at 10/10ths down to the same 100mph, you would be able to start braking 150ft. from the turn-in point. You would carry the same speed from turn-in onwards but you would be able to carry your straightline pre-turn-in speed for 50 ft. longer.

As long as you are able to smoothly get off the brakes so as to not upset the car, I can't imagine how braking later and harder won't give you faster lap times.
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      12-05-2007, 01:55 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
Hmmm, that doesn't make sense.

If you're braking at 8/10ths down to say 100mph, you'd have to start at say 200 ft. from the turn-in point. If you were braking at 10/10ths down to the same 100mph, you would be able to start braking 150ft. from the turn-in point. You would carry the same speed from turn-in onwards but you would be able to carry your straightline pre-turn-in speed for 50 ft. longer.

As long as you are able to smoothly get off the brakes so as to not upset the car, I can't imagine how braking later and harder won't give you faster lap times.
His point was that if you have to choose between smooth and braking later, go smooth. Car wiggling makes the car unbalanced in the turn in. Dive-boming (which, by definition, is 10/10th as late as you possibly can) is more likely to yield inconsistent turn in and have weight transfer from the nose to the rear at or just before turn in. Again, not what you want.

Braking slightly earlier and less allows you to set up your turn in speed eaiser, with a settled car, and be more consistent with it. Also keep in mind that that advice was for turn 1 and 10a where your pre-brake zone speeds can be 130+ and 150+ respectively. Braking 10/10ths is much more drastic at those speeds.

I may not be explaining it correctly. All I know is that it allowed me to be smoother and faster exit speeds. I was probably braking too much and relying to heavily on the gas in exits before. I was basically learning how to use the BBK, because it's only been on the car ~2 weeks.

A trackmate is in my near future so I can analyze what I'm doing.
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      12-05-2007, 02:09 PM   #12
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OK I get what you're saying now. Yes, early braking does allow you more time to smoothen out the car before turn-in. The oft-repeated mantra of "get all your braking done before turn-in". Go for smooth before you go for speed.

But you have to realize that it's not the fastest way. In the future, once you get smooth brake RELEASE down, try to move your braking points forward. If you wanna get real burly, easing off braking as you're turning in or slightly after has three effects: (1) You're smoother coming off of hard braking since you don't have to release the brake abruptly (2) You carry more speed through the straight and at turn-in (3) the front end weight bias will allow the front end to turn properly and the rear end to rotate around to compensate for the higher entry speeds. Classic trail braking.

But yes, given that you only have a few days under your belt, his advice of braking early and lighter is appropriate.
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      12-05-2007, 02:32 PM   #13
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Reading your response tells me that I'm drawing too wide of a divide between one and the other. It's more like the difference of 10/10ths and 9.5/10ths with trail braking.

Let's say my 10/10ths with being fully off the brakes before turn in was at the 180 mark. That would mean than the 9.5/10ths method started braking at 190-195 and carried into the turn in with higher turn in, apex speeds, and exit speeds letting you come out faster and getting on the throttle slightly later because you're already at or above the speed you would have been at with the first method.

I tend to think of classic trail braking as going through a two turn sequence where the first turn is less acute than the second and being slightly on the brakes through the first and then thresholding just before the second turn. Thereby allowing you to be at the edge of grip through the first turn and carry as much speed as possible between the two.
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      12-05-2007, 02:55 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegemony View Post
Reading your response tells me that I'm drawing too wide of a divide between one and the other. It's more like the difference of 10/10ths and 9.5/10ths with trail braking.

Let's say my 10/10ths with being fully off the brakes before turn in was at the 180 mark. That would mean than the 9.5/10ths method started braking at 190-195 and carried into the turn in with higher turn in, apex speeds, and exit speeds letting you come out faster and getting on the throttle slightly later because you're already at or above the speed you would have been at with the first method.

I tend to think of classic trail braking as going through a two turn sequence where the first turn is less acute than the second and being slightly on the brakes through the first and then thresholding just before the second turn. Thereby allowing you to be at the edge of grip through the first turn and carry as much speed as possible between the two.
Not quite.

If you are smooth, there is absolutely no reason why the 10/10ths method should give you slower turn-in, apex or exit speeds. If you brake harder, you start later and do it for less time. If you brake less, as you suggest, you start earlier and do it for more time.

The net result is the same post-braking speed.

You seem to equate braking harder with resulting in a slower entry speed - which is definitely not the case. You just don't brake as long. If anything, later braking and the trail braking that accompanies it will allow you to enter the corner at a higher speed as the front end is more loaded, allowing greater front end grip and allowing the car to rotate.

And trail braking is not a two-turn method. It can be done on any turn, isolated or linked. On slower turns, I use it to get the car to rotate nicely and on faster turns I use it to give the front end better grip, allowing faster entry speeds.

This fellow describes trail-braking far better than I can:

http://www.getfaster.com/Techtips/Physics23.html
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      12-05-2007, 03:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
If you are smooth, there is absolutely no reason why the 10/10ths method should give you slower turn-in, apex or exit speeds.
I completely agree.
The only time this might not be the case is under unusual circumstances, such as a bump in just the wrong spot that upsets the car's balance.
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      12-05-2007, 03:46 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leftcoastman View Post
The net result is the same post-braking speed.

You seem to equate braking harder with resulting in a slower entry speed - which is definitely not the case. You just don't brake as long. If anything, later braking and the trail braking that accompanies it will allow you to enter the corner at a higher speed as the front end is more loaded, allowing greater front end grip and allowing the car to rotate.

And trail braking is not a two-turn method. It can be done on any turn, isolated or linked. On slower turns, I use it to get the car to rotate nicely and on faster turns I use it to give the front end better grip, allowing faster entry speeds.

This fellow describes trail-braking far better than I can:

http://www.getfaster.com/Techtips/Physics23.html
I think we're talking about the same thing, but we're suffering from two things.

1) Definition of what 10/10ths is. I think that shuttering we both felt is ABS not working properly with the BBK and is thereby braking beyond threshold.

2) You;re assuming that, "If you brake less, as you suggest, you start earlier and do it for more time" and this results in slower overall times.

From the link you provided: "Since it eliminates the sub-optimal moments between the ramp-down from braking and the ramp-up to limit cornering by overlapping them, entry speeds can be higher."

Trail braking is braking for a longer period of time than the 'Off-before-turn-in' method at 10/10ths, but it results in faster times. The key here is that the braking is lighter but keeping the weight on the front thereby increasing contact patch size and controlling weight distribution allowing you increase entry speed over someone who is not still on the brakes. You're overall time on the brakes is longer than the 10/10ths stab before turn in.
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      12-05-2007, 04:02 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegemony View Post
I think we're talking about the same thing, but we're suffering from two things.

1) Definition of what 10/10ths is. I think that shuttering we both felt is ABS not working properly with the BBK and is thereby braking beyond threshold.

2) You;re assuming that, "If you brake less, as you suggest, you start earlier and do it for more time" and this results in slower overall times.

From the link you provided: "Since it eliminates the sub-optimal moments between the ramp-down from braking and the ramp-up to limit cornering by overlapping them, entry speeds can be higher."

Trail braking is braking for a longer period of time than the 'Off-before-turn-in' method at 10/10ths, but it results in faster times. The key here is that the braking is lighter but keeping the weight on the front thereby increasing contact patch size and controlling weight distribution allowing you increase entry speed over someone who is not still on the brakes. You're overall time on the brakes is longer than the 10/10ths stab before turn in.
No we're still not on the same page.

If you hit ABS, you have overdone it. My rear end wagging is not due to ABS kicking in, it is the differential brake bias from front to back as a result of having race pads up front and regular pads in back. And I hope you realize that the BBK doesn't increase braking FORCE, it just delays the onset of fade due to a larger heat sink.

OK, we're mixing things here. Let's isolate it. All things equal, with completed braking before turn-in:

(1) Braking later and harder will (as long as you are smooth) result in faster lap times.

(2) Braking earlier and softer, as you suggest, will result in slower lap times.

The 2nd is easier as it doesn't require as much precision or smoothness. Are we in agreement there? The less time you spend slowing down, the more time you spend at higher speed. Do you agree?




Now the ultimate advanced technique is braking late and hard AND trail braking. Again, holding all else equal:

(a) Brake earlier, less hard and trail brake your way through the turn-in will result in slower lap times

(b) Brake later and harder and trail brake your way through the turn-in will result in faster lap times

Are we in agreement that (B) will result in faster lap times?

In both situations, holding all else equal, braking later and harder will result in faster lap times.

Put another way: The more time you can spend at higher speed, the faster your lap times will be. The way to get longer durations at higher speed is to spend less time braking. The way to spend less time braking is to brake harder.
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      12-05-2007, 04:31 PM   #18
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What I suggested was not #2 in your description. That's the disconnect.

What I suggested was backing off your braking to prevent the wiggling, whether it be ABS or differential in brake bias causing the problem. It's unsettling the car. Thus the faster line is not to do that. The wiggling was causing me to make sure the car was settled first before turning in, thus hurting my time.

Now if adding the race pads to the back would allow you to start your braking later and not wiggle, then that's an option when you get back to your vendor. But that's modding the car to improve its capability, not driving the car to the maximum capability as it is.
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      12-05-2007, 04:38 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hegemony View Post
What I suggested was not #2 in your description. That's the disconnect.

What I suggested was backing off your braking to prevent the wiggling, whether it be ABS or differential in brake bias causing the problem. It's unsettling the car. Thus the faster line is not to do that.

Now if adding the race pads to the back would allow you to start your braking later and not wiggle, then that's an option when you get back to your vendor. But that's modding the car to improve its capability, not driving the car to the maximum capability as it is.
This is still sub-optimal, given your options.

I believe you now agree that braking hard and later is better, if the car can handle it. As I stated in my original point, you need to upgrade all four corners. BBK all around with race pads only in front screws with the brake bias. This screwed brake bias does not allow you to brake fully.

You are better off with a stock balanced setup and being able to brake HARD than an imbalanced BBK kit where you have to reduce your braking to prevent "wiggling".

Here's a good article on brake balancing:

http://www.turnfast.com/tech_brakes/...alancing.shtml
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      12-05-2007, 05:24 PM   #20
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Sigh.

I think you have the impression that you've taught me something here. You haven't. All we've done is clarify that we both know the fastest way through the corner. Sure you've been doing it longer and I'm quite certain that your consistency in executing it is much better than mine, but that doesn't mean that I don't understand the concept.

If you're open to a little feedback, your posts are coming across as preachy as though you're talking to a complete track noob. It's annoying and at my skill level, were you my instructor and talking this way to me at an event I'd ask the event coordinator to assign someone else to me.

I hope your not the type of instructor who makes egregious assumptions about your students based solely upon their seat time. There are definitely things that I don't know, but the late braking/trail braking concept isn't one of them.

Sure, having your car configured less than perfectly is suboptimal if you can exceed one or more of the existing limitations, but knowing how to adjust to that problem and still improve your time is also one of the fundamentals to driving faster.

EDIT: thanks for the links. Always looking for new reading material. And if you're ever on the right coast and I'm at an event that weekend, you're welcome to ride. I'll always take input.
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      12-05-2007, 07:24 PM   #21
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Wow...this deteriorated quickly...time to share a bud light.
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      12-05-2007, 11:29 PM   #22
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Yeah sorry man - looks like things come across poorly via text from both our sides.

I have seen more than my fair share of people who spend tons of money on mods that end up making their car worse and it somewhat grates on me - if only from a "feel bad for them" perspective. Perhaps I unfairly categorized you as such.

Back to the OP - good report.

And Steve, come on now, Sierra Nevada - not Bud Light.
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