July 2014 BBC Top Gear - BMW M4 vs. C7 Corvette Stingray

[Prince_of_Persia]

Originally Posted by 330indy

Makes me want to drive a Stingray

Yes. I heard a lot about the new Stingray. Haven't heard any bad reviews. For its price, it is a no brainer.

[badbeef]

If other magazine reviews look like this, BMW has a problem on its hands. Almost everyone who buys an M3 reads the press.

Could you imagine being an engineer in the M division and having to follow up the E30/36/46/9X? Kind of like being an engineer on the 911. Everyone wants progress but no one wants you to screw up. Then you have the bean counters. This M3 looks like they tried to play it safe and were a little scared at taking big chances. Nothing really all that special about it.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Yes, but I don't remember any E9x M3 reviews quite as negative as this. And Top Gear's definitely wasn't. This is also hardly an isolated case. The fact that the Cayman GTS reviews are through the roof isn't helping matters either for people who don't really need rear seats....

Except two of the Top Gear guys individually have been gushing about the M4... Clarkson said he wants to own one and Hammond had nothing but great things to say. Completely inconsistent with the opinion from whomever did this review. Given the cars is was put up against, I'm not surprised to be honest.

This is, really, the only negative review to date on the car whereas most have been hugely positive. You can't take one review out of context... especially considering the cars in this test!! The F8X, based on my viewing pretty much every online review and mostly everything written to-date, has been very, very well received and pretty much unanimous consent on it being a big step forward from the previous generation. The C7 was the same... the vast majority of reviews are glowing but there have been one or two not so great ones too. As they say, you can't please all of the people, all of the time...

[ss134]

And Silence ..... ...

.. I have read over 60 reviews on the new cars and 95% of them have been incredibly positive claiming that the new cars are better in every way than the previous generation. This car has received a much more positive reaction Than the E92M3 did on launch.

Plenty of reviews also stating that this is the best ever M car as well- time will tell. So many people on this forum are desperate for the new car to fail and clutch at every negative review as gospel and dismiss the huge majority of positive ones-it really is quite pathetic. The E9x is a great car but the new cars are better in almost every way , just as the E46 to E90 transitioned. This is progress but as always owners of previous generations attempt to play down the new models to make themselves feel better.

Ok- so we are on the subject of Top Gear and some people are reading this review like it's the bible .......I wonder what Hammond and Clarkson make of the new cars??? Read on. Enjoy your cars, no need to hate on the new ones.

Quote from Hammonds review:

All this for £56,650 (that’s for the M4 – the M3 is £56,190). A lot of money but then this is one of the best sports saloons in the world at any price – and considerably better than its predecessor. ( ouch that's got to hurt)

A couple of flaps at the back of the system open to increase the volume of the music and BMW’s engineers have also fiddled with the induction system to create one of the best-sounding cars in ages.

Full review here:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/lifestyle/mo...anages-3725985

Clarkson likes it too:

[badbeef]

I will refrain from commenting too much until I drive one...but the design elements of the car aren't speaking to me on paper. And the tech isn't all that special either.

Seems like a 335 M package more than a full blown M3. Not special enough.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by LarThaL

Yes, but isn't this similar to what was said about the e92 compared to the e46....that it had become softer, less raw, etc, etc.

I love my e92, but just sayin'....???

Yes, you're absolutely right

Originally Posted by jphughan

Yep, and we haven't even gotten to the Z06 yet....

ZO6 is going to be literal insanity. I mean, hell, even the C6 ZO6 is still a beast compared to the F8x

Originally Posted by rjd598

People seem to forget this a lot. The weight addition of the e9x over e46 must have had people going mad, but look at the car now. You have people wanting to sleep in the damn thing because they think the v8 will whisper a nice bedtime story about how it got produced in a factory. Same thing with the e60 m5. The whole time it was out, the majority seemed to dislike it for various reasons. As soon as everyone knew for a fact the next m5 was a ttv8..."all hail the v10". Just saying

The M4 will get some praise in due time, no worries there.

Originally Posted by Sered

So their complaint is tires? The M4 makes more power and torque than the Stingray, weighs similar, but has tiny tires by comparison. No shit it's going to be a nightmare. We can blame BMW for not properly sizing the tires (again)

SO TRUE. I've had to upsize my past 2 M3s. Is it bad that I am praying that 305s will fit on the rear of this?

Originally Posted by W///

I remember plenty of reviews that didn't like the E9x due to its weight and steering feel (compared to the E46), but loved the S65.

Honestly, the ONLY review that matters is the one when you drive the car for yourself. Everything else is pretty irrelevant IMO.

THIS. Even on my test drive, I could feel the rear end wanting to bail, but it still seemed solid. (Maybe because I wasn't WOT) I still think wider tires and some coilovers will help significantly.



And regardless, I still can't wait to get my "disappointment" of a car.

[gthal]

Originally Posted by ss134

And Silence ..... ...

.. I have read over 60 reviews on the new cars and 95% of them have been incredibly positive claiming that the new cars are better in every way than the previous generation. This car has received a much more positive reaction Than the E92M3 did on launch.

... the world is not falling apart but it is very interesting how something negative is said and then everything else before it is no longer relevant or seems to be forgotten. Not everyone will love every car.

[ASAP]

Golf-R lol... a $35K AWD GTI based on an econobox glistens them but a 430 WHP M3 with one of the best DCTs in the world and proper RWD doesn't. Then they compare it to a C7 which is funny because if you watch the EVO review; their thoughts on that car are completely different. Point being... opinions are like a**holes. What's most important in the end is if the car makes the driver feel special and that is a decision that is extremely personal. You prefer the E92 M3; that's fine... it's a great car, I prefer the F80; that's fine too.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Golf-R lol... a $35K AWD GTI based on an econobox glistens them but a 430 WHP M3 with one of the best DCTs in the world and proper RWD doesn't. Then they compare it to a C7 which is funny because if you watch the EVO review; their thoughts on that car are completely different. Point being... opinions are like a**holes. What's most important in the end is if the car makes the driver feel special and that is a decision that is extremely personal. You prefer the E92 M3; that's fine... it's a great car, I prefer the F80; that's fine too.

I do have a couple friends with Stingrays though and they absolutely love them. I've yet to drive one but my short time driving the m4 was spectacular. Better than my FBO E92.

[JoeFromPA]

Every once in awhile I read an actual series of driving comments that make me think,

"Were the tires cooked from previous use?"

"Did someone hit a curb and the alignment is off but no one noticed?"

"Is there something wrong with this vehicle that's not obvious, but completely changes it's driving character when driven hard, and no one knows it?"

...

The comments about it's driving at the limits are just so far off every other reviewer - reviewers who have been on the track and streets for hours with the car - that it really makes me wonder.

You can't drive like a 2003 Cobra one day and better than an e92 m3 another day and be driving the same car. I can accept that for some the car might not "excite" - that's fine, it's opinion.

But I can't accept that it's barely under control near the limit, is frustrating to drive there, and yet others are racking up great times and blown away by the ease of driving it so fast when going 9/10th and 10/10ths. That's too much within the objective realm of a review.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

I do have a couple friends with Stingrays though and they absolutely love them. I've yet to drive one but my short time driving the m4 was spectacular. Better than my FBO E92.

The Stingray is an awesome car. It looks fantastic, sounds right and the interior is finally a solid representation of what America can do if it tries. I am not impressed by the performance however... it like the M3 dynos low 400s and runs in the 1/4 at near equal numbers. At that point; whats the idea behind having the Vette in the 1st place when for the same price I can have a 4 door luxury saloon that with a tune performs even way better. Also, I am a fan of turbo motors.

With the Vette, the Z06 will be the way to go but then we are talking about a different level of performance and price.

[Ritz42]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The Stingray is an awesome car. It looks fantastic, sounds right and the interior is finally a solid representation of what America can do if it tries. I am not impressed by the performance however... it like the M3 dynos low 400s and runs in the 1/4 at near equal numbers. At that point; whats the idea behind having the Vette in the 1st place when for the same price I can have a 4 door luxury saloon that with a tune performs even way better. Also, I am a fan of turbo motors.

With the Vette, the Z06 will be the way to go but then we are talking about a different level of performance and price.

I haven't seen a plot for an f8x on a mustang dyno yet, but a friend strapped his brand new c7 to his mustang dyno here in ct and made 380whp/400wtq. That would probably explain the similar times in the quarter.

[tallshortguy]

Originally Posted by badbeef

If other magazine reviews look like this, BMW has a problem on its hands. Almost everyone who buys an M3 reads the press.

Could you imagine being an engineer in the M division and having to follow up the E30/36/46/9X? Kind of like being an engineer on the 911. Everyone wants progress but no one wants you to screw up. Then you have the bean counters. This M3 looks like they tried to play it safe and were a little scared at taking big chances. Nothing really all that special about it.

Other magazines have already posted reviews and they all loved it. Did you miss the 20 page review thread?

I find it interesting that almost every single criticism besides the engine "specialness" is not mentioned in any other review.

[bruce.augenstein@comcast.]

Originally Posted by gthal

Except two of the Top Gear guys individually have been gushing about the M4... Clarkson said he wants to own one and Hammond had nothing but great things to say. Completely inconsistent with the opinion from whomever did this review. Given the cars is was put up against, I'm not surprised to be honest.

This is, really, the only negative review to date on the car whereas most have been hugely positive. You can't take one review out of context... especially considering the cars in this test!! The F8X, based on my viewing pretty much every online review and mostly everything written to-date, has been very, very well received and pretty much unanimous consent on it being a big step forward from the previous generation. The C7 was the same... the vast majority of reviews are glowing but there have been one or two not so great ones too. As they say, you can't please all of the people, all of the time...

Spot on. In this test, it would have been a bit surprising if the M4 had shown up brilliantly, although the Golf R was a pleasant surprise.

Given a more birds-of-a-feather test against peer cars (new C63, old/new RS5, new IS-F, etc., the new M3/4 will show up quite well, I think.

I personally believe these new M cars will be hot-damn rides, and successful in the marketplace. They've "fixed" the low end laziness, definitely fixed the fuel usage problem, and to all accounts made a better car than the E9X.

It's maybe a touch early, especially without a bunch a full tests, but I say thumbs up.

[serieD]

This was an interesting read. Thanks for posting it.


http://www.topgear.com/uk/car-news/b...drive-2014-5-8

But why does this top-gear article (URL above) rate the M4 9/10? I mean surely after the beat down this journalist just put on the M4 it couldn't receive a 9/10. From his standpoint it seems the car would receive a 6 or 7. It's also the first review that mentions the car being all over the place. I have read tens of reviews and most handling comments are quite the opposite. Here is a quote from the very same Top Gear BBC web page in regards to handling;


"Most of the time it’s just beautifully balanced, and at the track plays happily in the zone between pushing a bit wide at the front and stepping out a little at the back. It’s all very manageable – and you don’t even have to turn the traction off. MDM mode, which loosens the shackles a bit, is genius and the M3 just moves very well indeed."

Maybe this journalist was a poor driver? Maybe he was having a bad day? I am not sure, at the same time don't get me wrong, I am sure they're flaws with the M4 and the vette is absolutely amazing car. I have been able to drive a few of them and they are great! I am just saying, this car hasn't really gotten a bashing like getting called "mincemeat" from the majority of the reviewers. Chris Harris, in his notes, favored the car, isn't it a little strange that this guy could find so much wrong with a car that most other reviewers aren't?


In the OP, the journalist says that no one stood up for the M4, after the Vette "murdered" it, but he contradicts himself earlier when he says the M4 was the source of many heated debates and arguments? This whole article is weird. But hey, I am sure many e92 guys are finding solace that the new car isn't the second coming of Jesus Christ...unless of course, it is

[Wes Howell]

I owned a Z06. I liked it quite a bit. Hated the interior, the quality...but performance-wise it was fun...especially for the weekend or a track day. It actually just brought more fun in that regard, but I enjoy my BMW's so much more on a daily basis.

I love my M4 and don't feel a need to defend it. I think it's super refined - maybe some people want something more raw. I love the effortless speed and tactile control. I love it's good manners.

I wouldn't even think twice about a stingray. I think the styling is never timeless (unless you go back 30 years) I hate the interior. Don't love the front of it......and overall know that it's lacking the refinement and polish.

In order for me to compromise on the elements that lack in a Vette, I'd need the new C06....the brutal power and speed might just help balance things out a bit.

I don't think the review is balanced....FWIW.

Doesn't make me second guess my choice in the slightest.....that would take a Z06.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by gthal

This is, really, the only negative review to date on the car whereas most have been hugely positive. You can't take one review out of context... especially considering the cars in this test!! The F8X, based on my viewing pretty much every online review and mostly everything written to-date, has been very, very well received and pretty much unanimous consent on it being a big step forward from the previous generation.

Originally Posted by W///

I remember plenty of reviews that didn't like the E9x due to its weight and steering feel (compared to the E46), but loved the S65.

Honestly, the ONLY review that matters is the one when you drive the car for yourself. Everything else is pretty irrelevant IMO.

Fair points all around. I guess what jumps out at me about the F8x reviews is the consistent impression that the S55, while definitely impressive and even arguably worthy of an M3/4, isn't a stand-out feature of the car -- whereas the S65 was seen as an absolute jewel that delivered the wow and fun factors in spades. So while it wouldn't be fair at all to say that F8x M3/4 buyers are doomed to a mediocre engine, it appears that for all of its increased efficiency and more usable torque, the S55 just won't be as fun. But maybe the reduced weight, e-diff, and techno toys can help offset that.

My general prediction is that people coming from the E46 M3 won't have a problem with the engine at all (though the difference in steering feel will be more pronounced, it seems), but people coming from the E9x will have mixed impressions -- likely more so than people going from the E6x M5/6 to the F1x since those cars are more GT cars in the first place and they at least still have a V8 this generation.

[jc05e46m3]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The Stingray is an awesome car. It looks fantastic, sounds right and the interior is finally a solid representation of what America can do if it tries. I am not impressed by the performance however... it like the M3 dynos low 400s and runs in the 1/4 at near equal numbers. At that point; whats the idea behind having the Vette in the 1st place when for the same price I can have a 4 door luxury saloon that with a tune performs even way better. Also, I am a fan of turbo motors.

With the Vette, the Z06 will be the way to go but then we are talking about a different level of performance and price.

Im totally with you on all accounts. Guys with LTH and tune on the LS7s are seeing some pretty good gains, but still not where the F8x is with the tune. And im with you there. Why would I sacrifice comfort, lux, and 4 seats for the vette? It was funny, my buddy has a C6 ZO6 and we go to the track together. He brought his track wheels and tools and the back hatch could not completely close (He rode with it partially open) and I was able to fold down the seats in my e92 and fit all 4 of my Apex 18s with 275 RS-3s as well as my jack, other various tools, and my girlfriend. Legit.

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by ASAP

The Stingray is an awesome car. It looks fantastic, sounds right and the interior is finally a solid representation of what America can do if it tries. I am not impressed by the performance however... it like the M3 dynos low 400s and runs in the 1/4 at near equal numbers. At that point; whats the idea behind having the Vette in the 1st place when for the same price I can have a 4 door luxury saloon that with a tune performs even way better. Also, I am a fan of turbo motors.

With the Vette, the Z06 will be the way to go but then we are talking about a different level of performance and price.

Well first off, keep in mind that the Vette still costs less than an M3. And just as you're a fan of turbo motors, others are fans of V8s, and even high-displacement V8s. Performance numbers also aren't everything. The M3 has never been the absolute best in its class in performance or any other single thing, but people love it because it's very good at basically everything, which makes it arguably the best all-around package available. And of course driving feel and overall enjoyment are critical ingredients that do not correlate particularly closely with dyno numbers and 1/4 trap speeds, or even MSRP. It's also possible for two cars to be equally exciting but in very different ways, which will lead different people to prefer one over the other. And lastly of course there's the fact that these cars can be just as much about the style and the image you want to project.

The Vette and M3 are obviously both head and shoulders above "regular" cars in the fun factor, but to say that the Vette is an obvious pass for the reasons you give isn't a fair assessment IMHO.

Also, judging by the dearth of progress on the M5/6, I wouldn't count on a tune for the M4 any time soon. From what I understand, it's a combination of BMW having locked up the ECU very tightly on the S63Tu (and it will be at least as tightly locked down for the S55, if not more so) and the fact that BMW's own tune on these engines isn't as conservative as, say, the N54's was, so the same power gains may not be in the cards this time around.

Originally Posted by jc05e46m3

Im totally with you on all accounts. Guys with LTH and tune on the LS7s are seeing some pretty good gains, but still not where the F8x is with the tune. And im with you there. Why would I sacrifice comfort, lux, and 4 seats for the vette? It was funny, my buddy has a C6 ZO6 and we go to the track together. He brought his track wheels and tools and the back hatch could not completely close (He rode with it partially open) and I was able to fold down the seats in my e92 and fit all 4 of my Apex 18s with 275 RS-3s as well as my jack, other various tools, and my girlfriend. Legit.

This is one of my favorite features of an M3, and one that always come to mind when I consider defecting to a Z06 or Cayman GT4. The M3 and the outgoing Mustang are the only two track-worthy cars I'm aware of that can fit a full set of wheels in the trunk with room to spare for tools and even a passenger.

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by jphughan

Well first off, keep in mind that the Vette still costs less than an M3. And just as you're a fan of turbo motors, others are fans of V8s, and even high-displacement V8s. Performance numbers also aren't everything. The M3 has never been the absolute best in its class in performance or any other single thing, but people love it because it's very good at basically everything, which makes it arguably the best all-around package available. And of course driving feel and overall enjoyment are critical ingredients that do not correlate particularly closely with dyno numbers and 1/4 trap speeds, or even MSRP. It's also possible for two cars to be equally exciting but in very different ways, which will lead different people to prefer one over the other. And lastly of course there's the fact that these cars can be just as much about the style and the image you want to project.

Yes... I can't argue that.

The Vette and M3 are obviously both head and shoulders above "regular" cars in the fun factor, but to say that the Vette is an obvious pass for the reasons you give isn't a fair assessment IMHO.

Who said the Vette isn't a pass? I love it, I simply feel that in terms of equal performance; the M3 IMHO wins given that you don't sacrifice anything.

Also, judging by the dearth of progress on the M5/6, I wouldn't count on a tune for the M4 any time soon. From what I understand, it's a combination of BMW having locked up the ECU very tightly on the S63Tu (and it will be at least as tightly locked down for the S55, if not more so) and the fact that BMW's own tune on these engines isn't as conservative as, say, the N54's was, so the same power gains may not be in the cards this time around.

Already has happened. JB4 480 WHP...

This is one of my favorite features of an M3, and one that always come to mind when I consider defecting to a Z06 or Cayman GT4. The M3 and the outgoing Mustang are the only two track-worthy cars I'm aware of that can fit a full set of wheels in the trunk with room to spare for tools and even a passenger.

Yes

[jphughan]

Originally Posted by ASAP

Who said the Vette isn't a pass? I love it, I simply feel that in terms of equal performance; the M3 IMHO wins given that you don't sacrifice anything.

Already has happened. JB4

The Corvette still seems to weigh a couple hundred pounds less, but I do agree that the M4 does look like the "have it all in one car" solution -- as it has been for a while now.

Hadn't learned that the JB4 had been updated for the S63Tu, interesting! But it looks like it only adds 30-50 hp on stock cars with pump gas (~7% increase), compared to 80 hp from the N54 (~27% increase).

[ASAP]

Originally Posted by jphughan

The Corvette still seems to weigh a couple hundred pounds less, but I do agree that the M4 does look like the "have it all in one car" solution -- as it has been for a while now.

Hadn't learned that the JB4 had been updated for the S63Tu, interesting! But it looks like it only adds 30-50 hp on stock cars with pump gas (~7% increase), compared to 80 hp from the N54 (~27% increase).

I think you mean S55... S63tu is a different beast.

Yes but the N54 made 270 WHP stock not 430 WHP...

Apples to apples in terms of power; it's still a basic tune on pump gas whearas on the N54 that required FBO on e85 or meth. Like my car below