Lexus GS-F = Is it possible to get 500 HP from a 5.0 liter V8 NA motor?

[Blackraven]

Okay so coming soon.....



With that said, I have a question (and this is what we were debating over at ClubLexus):
Is it possible for a 5.0 liter NA V8 engine (e.g. 2UR-GSE) to have a MINIMUM of 500 HP???

-Bore and stroke upgrade?
-Cylinder enhancement?
-Atkinson fuel cycle?

I'm not familiar with performance enhancements for N/A setups........so I'd like to ask the opinion from experts in the field....

[Palomequet]

The BMW M3 E9X has 420 hp with a 4 liter engine ( perfect squared engine ) so 500 in a 5 liter is completely plausible.

[Boss330]

500hp from 5l is 100hp/l

There are plenty of engines with a specific outpout of more than 100hp/l, so the 500hp goal is not a far fetched, or even difficult, target.

Honda and others made 100hp/l engines for production cars back in 2000 and the 1995 BMW S50B32 (E36 M3) engine made just a tad over 100hp/l as well.

[Dionysus]

As has been said above, it certainly is feasible to extract more than 100hp per litre from an N/A engine. Perhaps the more relevant question we should ask is with what impact to reliability, longevity (proven in some of the examples above), fuel economy, emissions and development costs (i.e. impact on unit price).

I believe Toyota claimed 740hp from it's 2.4 V8 RVX-06 engine in 2006 (>300hp/litre), however, this is clearly not a suitable option for a road car...

I would hazard a guess that the GS-F is not a car that Toyota would want to intentionally sell at an overall loss.

[ColdList]

GT3=475hp / 3.8L Flat 6

[URBAN LEGEND]

4.5l @ 570 horsepower. Ferrari 458.

[Blackraven]

I see. I guess it is possible.

Still there might be some concerns:

Perhaps the more relevant question we should ask is with what impact to reliability, longevity

If the current 2UR-GSE is of any indication, then I guess it's fairly reliable so no worries on that front..........at least in 470 HP configuration.

We don't know what happens if they added extra 30 horses to it.

fuel economy

If a certain law or regulation requires for a minimum required fuel economy rating, then it might be a concern. If not, then SCREW IT. You don't buy these kinds of cars to save fuel.

As I always say, if you want to save fuel, buy a Prius or a VW Golf TDI instead.

emissions

This may be a concern in places like Europe (especially in a government run by eco-terrorists and anti-car bureaucrats).

@Boss330
Is this car only required to just meet Euro 5? Or is it required to face tougher Euro 6 regulations?

development costs (i.e. impact on unit price).

For me, as long as it doesn't exceed the price of an M5, E63, XF-R, RS6/RS7, then that's good for me. It might be cheaper than those cars as well on a worldwide level (except in Europe where Lexus has to pay import tax and shipping/logistics cost so it'll be more expensive than their domestic/regional brands).

There are slight concerns though from a company perspective. Toyota did spend a fortune on the Lexus LFA and each vehicle is sold at a loss. Still, if the Toyota bean counters can bear with it, then I hope that Toyota/Lexus didn't skimp out on costs (even though an F car may be sold at a financial loss).

[stealth.pilot]

The other issue is lack of torque. A 500hp naturally aspirated engine won't compare to a 500hp forced induction engine due to lack of torque. It will be more peaky and lack low end response.

[Blackraven]

Originally Posted by stealth.pilot

The other issue is lack of torque. A 500hp naturally aspirated engine won't compare to a 500hp forced induction engine due to lack of torque. It will be more peaky and lack low end response.

Yup we understand that........and it's definitely one of the pros and cons of FI vs NA. We do understand what this entails.

Still, given the perceived method of operation involved (at least with what Lexus buyers want for this car), I'm guessing V8 NA works for them.

On the plus side, we expect the stock exhaust sound to be very nice (which is the strong points of naturally-aspirated engines)

With that said:
I (along with a number of others) just want this car to at least reach 500 HP.

I cannot accept it if this car will have less than that (e.g. you need to have greater performance differentiation from the 470 HP produced by the Lexus RC-F)

[Dionysus]

Target demographic for a GS-F? Forecasted sales figures? Natural competitors? Do they really want/need another non-profitable halo car after the LFA? Is a performance edition of an executive car predominately aimed at business users who like driving?

W.r.t. NA vs FI, if they tune the 2UR-GSE up to 500hp+, it's unlikely to be competitive with the likes of M5, E63, RS6, etc. Perhaps it'll compete with XFR-S in some respects (not all)?

I agree NA would be a USP in this segment, however, Honda have gone FI with VTEC, so who knows what Toyota are working on? Are they in a position to leverage their hybrid expertise, with tangible benefit, on a standard construction performance executive car?

At the risk of sounding unintentionally offensive, IMO the 'F' saloons have, so far, chased the competition; I would welcome something from Lexus that would drive the competition.

[Boss330]

Originally Posted by Blackraven

@Boss330
Is this car only required to just meet Euro 5? Or is it required to face tougher Euro 6 regulations?

It depends on whether this is deemed as a extension of a existing type approval or a new type approval.

If it's a new type approval it has to meet Euro 6 (in effect Sept 2014)
If it's an extension of a type approval it doesn't need to comply with Euro 6 before Sept 2015

AFAIK, there isn't a huge difference between Euro 5 and 6 for petrol engines, but a significant reduction in NOx for diesel engines between the two revisions.

[stealth.pilot]

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Target demographic for a GS-F? Forecasted sales figures? Natural competitors? Do they really want/need another non-profitable halo car after the LFA? Is a performance edition of an executive car predominately aimed at business users who like driving?

W.r.t. NA vs FI, if they tune the 2UR-GSE up to 500hp+, it's unlikely to be competitive with the likes of M5, E63, RS6, etc. Perhaps it'll compete with XFR-S in some respects (not all)?

I agree NA would be a USP in this segment, however, Honda have gone FI with VTEC, so who knows what Toyota are working on? Are they in a position to leverage their hybrid expertise, with tangible benefit, on a standard construction performance executive car?

At the risk of sounding unintentionally offensive, IMO the 'F' saloons have, so far, chased the competition; I would welcome something from Lexus that would drive the competition.

Completely agree. Personally I expect this GSF to be a waste of space. The Cadillac CTS-V is more interesting and will challenge the Germans to be better. The 640hp of the Cadillac will set the new benchmark for the segment.

[Blackraven]

Originally Posted by Boss330

It depends on whether this is deemed as a extension of a existing type approval or a new type approval.

If it's a new type approval it has to meet Euro 6 (in effect Sept 2014)
If it's an extension of a type approval it doesn't need to comply with Euro 6 before Sept 2015

AFAIK, there isn't a huge difference between Euro 5 and 6 for petrol engines, but a significant reduction in NOx for diesel engines between the two revisions.

I see.

So in your opinion, Lexus should not have any problems/issues with the GS-F and its 5.0 liter N/A V8 engine with regards to emissions compliance in Europe, is that correct?

Originally Posted by Dionysus

Target demographic for a GS-F? Forecasted sales figures? Natural competitors? Do they really want/need another non-profitable halo car after the LFA? Is a performance edition of an executive car predominately aimed at business users who like driving?

For me, Lexus will sell as many as they can produce........which is probably not a lot. But hey, a lot of premium performance cars out there are not based on solid business cases.......but rather to show a performance image for your brand.

Are they in a position to leverage their hybrid expertise, with tangible benefit, on a standard construction performance executive car?

The Toyota group is no stranger to hybrid technology.......BUT I don't think hybrid tech belongs in a Lexus 'F' car..........at least not yet imho.

They have 'h' line of hybrid cars for that. There are also hybrid F-sport models....but for full-fledged models, I don't think that hybrids are ready for that yet.

At the risk of sounding unintentionally offensive, IMO the 'F' saloons have, so far, chased the competition; I would welcome something from Lexus that would drive the competition.

I agree.

It took Lexus a while and it's relatively new to the Premium Performance segment. They've come a long way though from there first 'F' vehicle which is the IS-F. Since then, the LFA came..........and hopefully under the direction of the new CEO (who is more performance-minded compared to his predecessors), Lexus will delve more and more into this segment.

The debate we were having at Club Lexus was that:
-who should the Lexus GS-F be competing against
-The need for at least 500 HP (minimum) and how this can be achieved with an N/A setup

My take is that if you're releasing a GS-F, you should not be contented with just aiming at the Audi S6.

So if you're coming from an RC-F with a 470 HP engine then you're just going to raise it to 10-20 HP for your GS-F, well I just have to say that this won't do.

For a GS-F, you gotta try harder and get it to at least 500 HP.

Otherwise, there is no point calling it a GS-F..........and you might as well just call it a GS 500 F-sport (that will only compete with an S6, BMW 550i M-Sport and MB E500 AMG Sport Package)