Help me understand owning a German car pls.

[Flyer1234]

I noticed from reading between the X5 forum and the ML forum that members have raised issues like wipers adjustment, oil leak, brake calipers rusting, and many other issues. I have never owned a German Car so I have yet to appreciate the experience. So people are buying these cars because of the engine and because it is a BMW or a Mercedes? You would think that a car like this caliber should be free of small issues like this. Those who have driven a Lexus or Nissan always say they never have to deal with any problems. So pls help me understand as I am still in the market for a new SUV and plan to keep it for 7 years. Yes I like X5 and I also like the ML 400. But the existing drivers keep posting little issues here and there. Sometimes it is a little discouraging. does it have to do with the fact that these two models are not assembled in Germany? You don't hear as many issues from 5 series, E Class, or the likes as they are assembled in Germany. Sorry if this is a stupid post but I am still trying to learn before making a decision. Thank you all.

[possib1edoc]

I don't know if this helps but, I have had more problems with my Lexus IS than any of our past/current cars (Audi Q5, Acura MDX, BMW X5, Honda CRV and Nissan Quest combined).

There are literally a bunch of recalls on the Lexus every year and I will never be buying a Lexus in my life.

So far the best car in terms of reliability, value, driving dynamics, and AWD has been the Audi Q5 (BMW X5 is only a month old to compare really). The Q5 has 45k miles on it and the only problem it had was a very minor water leaking issue (just has to replace the seal). On the other hand, my Lexus had probably >10 recalls and I just got a new recall for it last week (it has 100k miles).

However, the most comments I have gotten regarding the looks of any of my cars has been the Lexus IS.

These "luxury" cars are something that make you look back at after locking the car and walking away from it in a parking lot! The Lexus has made me look back the most, even more than the Audi and BMW, hence why I don't want to sell it.

Between the Audi and Lexus so far, the maintenance cost of the Lexus has been the worst since you need to take it to service every 5k vs 10k for the Audi and BMW.

[retx]

IMO. Everyone has experienced or heard the stories differently. I was having the similar feeling like you before owning this F15. But I decided to do 3-year lease, and trust what I paid for (maintenance is included).

In the past, I've owned E36, S160, W220, 9PA, AL10, Tesla, etc. Parents have GSE21 and UVF46. Most of them are trouble-free. (My young brother's multiple Acura cars gave us the worst experiences so far, and actually I found Lexus is the best to us, 0 problems since we have own 5 Lexus since '99. Knock on wood.)

However, we do hear some others Lexus owners have the terrible experiences. All brands have cases like this.

Long story short. You will see the similar amount of issues or problems if you go to other car forums (Lexus, Infiniti, Acura, etc). All the cars have the issues.

But, IMO, the cost to repair German cars usually will be much more than American/Japanese if problems occur.

[Babs]

You are asking a very valid question and I am sure this will eventually be a long thread with a lot of posts from forum members. Of course there will be opinions for and against. My personal opinion is below:

Any car can have problems and unfortunately luxury cars have their fair share as well. You mentioned two Japanese brands as having a good reliability history while @ possib1edoc indicated there have been many recalls on the Lexus. Yes, a buyer will expect more reliability from a luxury car and in some cases, this does not happen. But again, it is sometimes specific to certain models and model years. I usually go to consumerreports.org to have a look at what they have to say about the reliability of the car I want to buy. Usually, it may take about a year for them to test a new model. Still, this is not a guarantee that the certified model might not have reliability issues.
I have driven many cars and can say that the luxury German cars just ride a lot better, have better materials on the inside and in many cases also have a better combination of tech and other options. I will summarize by saying it's mostly in the driving dynamics, particularly for BMW and overall look and feel. Also, the prestige and brand recognition you get from driving luxury cars makes the average person feel good. When buying decisions are made, we think less about the reliability of luxury cars. I guess we all hope that the bad reliability experience will not happen to us for the time we keep the car.

[MattBianco]

Originally Posted by GO1234

I noticed from reading between the X5 forum and the ML forum that members have raised issues like wipers adjustment, oil leak, brake calipers rusting, and many other issues. I have never owned a German Car so I have yet to appreciate the experience. So people are buying these cars because of the engine and because it is a BMW or a Mercedes? You would think that a car like this caliber should be free of small issues like this. Those who have driven a Lexus or Nissan always say they never have to deal with any problems. So pls help me understand as I am still in the market for a new SUV and plan to keep it for 7 years. Yes I like X5 and I also like the ML 400. But the existing drivers keep posting little issues here and there. Sometimes it is a little discouraging. does it have to do with the fact that these two models are not assembled in Germany? You don't hear as many issues from 5 series, E Class, or the likes as they are assembled in Germany. Sorry if this is a stupid post but I am still trying to learn before making a decision. Thank you all.

I figure a lot of people who have had a problem with an expensive car post online. That's how I ended up in here. Then I held on a bit longer and I realized the problems are accentuated here, and minor issues screamed (why won't my album art show up after OS upgrade of my phone?). I even formed a survey to prove things where not right with this car only to have about 130 people complete it (as of now) posting overwhelmingly positive impressions. See my footnote, open the results link and go to the lat two pages for summary responses.

This is a very good car. When I Googled "brake caliper rust" without the quotes two days ago Lexus showed up first (LINK), after Rustoleum paint. I have an LX and love that car too. I also have two Mercs (CLK500 ; R500) and they are good, but not as.

Assembly won't impact rust as nearly every component is exported to the U.S., mostly from Germany but also from Austria (transmission) Latvia (many lights and electronics). Wiper adjustments, poor fitting interior panels etc are US assembly issues. Merc has them with their US produced SUVs as well.

[cy07]

Originally Posted by possib1edoc

I don't know if this helps but, I have had more problems with my Lexus IS than any of our past/current cars (Audi Q5, Acura MDX, BMW X5, Honda CRV and Nissan Quest combined).

There are literally a bunch of recalls on the Lexus every year and I will never be buying a Lexus in my life.

So far the best car in terms of reliability, value, driving dynamics, and AWD has been the Audi Q5 (BMW X5 is only a month old to compare really). The Q5 has 45k miles on it and the only problem it had was a very minor water leaking issue (just has to replace the seal). On the other hand, my Lexus had probably >10 recalls and I just got a new recall for it last week (it has 100k miles).

However, the most comments I have gotten regarding the looks of any of my cars has been the Lexus IS.

These "luxury" cars are something that make you look back at after locking the car and walking away from it in a parking lot! The Lexus has made me look back the most, even more than the Audi and BMW, hence why I don't want to sell it.

Between the Audi and Lexus so far, the maintenance cost of the Lexus has been the worst since you need to take it to service every 5k vs 10k for the Audi and BMW.

I hardly ever see anyone complaining maintenance of Lexus because it's really low upkeep compared to the Germans (Q7, S500, 750Li) we've owned. We have owned quite a few Lexus for many years, and they have been flawless, not a single problem with every scheduled maintenance. (GS430, SC430, RX350) You are exception here.

What German lack of in quality control they more than enough made up for it in design and performance. I wouldn't blink twice about the laughable dealership extended warranty when buying Lexus but now I will give it serious thought with BMW. Especailly when you are planning to own the car 7+ years.

With extended warranty taken into consideration, go get your favorite BMW!

[possib1edoc]

Originally Posted by cy07

I hardly ever see anyone complaining maintenance of Lexus because it's really low upkeep compared to the Germans (Q7, S500, 750Li) we've owned. We have owned quite a few Lexus for many years, and they have been flawless, not a single problem with every scheduled maintenance. (GS430, SC430, RX350) You are exception here.

What German lack of in quality control they more than enough made up for it in design and performance. I wouldn't blink twice about the laughable dealership extended warranty when buying Lexus but now I will give it serious thought with BMW. Especailly when you are planning to own the car 7+ years.

With extended warranty taken into consideration, go get your favorite BMW!

I think the Lexus IS is an exception to the Lexus "brand/quality." Some of the issues my Lexus had/has: Engine needed to be taken apart, 3x problems with the AC motor (same issues they keep having to replace), exhausts had to be replaces, front windshield cracking inside the seals, etc. This list goes on and these don't even include the numerous recalls I have had on the car.

Maintenance: Every 5k for the Lexus is about $70-80, every 10k is $150-$300, every 30k is $300-700.

For the Audi I paid approx. $830 for the 4yr/50k maintenance plan which is much cheaper than Lexus maintenance.

[MysticBlue]

It's the nature of car forums. I haven't had any problems. None. Not one. No complaints about the car, about the dealer, about the buying process, about delivery... Nothing. So, every time someone posts about a problem they have had, I and everyone else who haven't had that problem don't post to say they haven't had that problem. That would be pointless. So, by it's very nature, any car forum is going to seem like that car has a lot of problems because that's what people talk about. And it's the nature of cars. Especially luxery cars. They are mind bogleingly complex and there is no way they can churn out thousands and thousands of cars without some problems.

[barcelona]

My personal belief is that in general the German cars are more likely to fair better in event of accident. I have not spent the time to validate my belief, just my theory.

[wjbender]

You need to understand there is a fundamental difference between German cars and most others. They are designed for a very high level of handling ability. The handling parameters are optimized as follows:
Cornering,
Braking,
Steering
Acceleration,
Interior /exterior sound
Ride.

Notice I placed ride last. Japanese cars are more like the typical American sedan where ride is optimized above all other parameters. There are differences within the German brands as well - Porsche and BMW build the best handling. Sadly, many buy a BMW without ever understanding what the words "Ultimate Driving Machine" really mean - they just want a sharp looking luxury car, or they buy it for prestige. These luxury cars, Japanese, American, and German, place different emphasis on each of the handling parameters. Japanese tend to place more emphasis on ride and low level of interior and exterior noise. You need to understand what is most important to you before you can make the right choice.

[Bimar]

We also buy knowing we will not get Japanese reliability, but the trade off is worth it and we'll that's what the warranty is there for.

[c63er]

Reliability aside (all my German cars have been highly reliable), there is something to be said for the not easily quantify able feeling the car gives the driver.

[cobra006]

Going back to the question of the OP about the X5 and ML being made here in US having any different quality level, I wondered the same thing. My X5 is my first German car, yet it's made here in US. I had some reservations about it before as I knew the X5 was made here in US, but I figured, if BMW is willing to make all X vehicles in the world in this one plant in US, they better be confident about the build quality compared to other German made cars, right ? I don't know how the US made ML's are quality wise as I never owned one. So far my X5 is pretty solid, aside from some occasional cabin noise when going over hard bumps, but I blame that on the run-flats. Do other people think US made German cars are not as reliable as German made German cars ?

[wjbender]

After taking the factory tour and witnessing the level of automation, and the number of quality checks, and inspections, I believe the assembly quality is indistinguishable. If there are rattles, noises, vibrations, these are design issues, not assembly issues.

[NPickles]

Originally Posted by GO1234

I noticed from reading between the X5 forum and the ML forum that members have raised issues like wipers adjustment, oil leak, brake calipers rusting, and many other issues. I have never owned a German Car so I have yet to appreciate the experience. So people are buying these cars because of the engine and because it is a BMW or a Mercedes? You would think that a car like this caliber should be free of small issues like this. Those who have driven a Lexus or Nissan always say they never have to deal with any problems. So pls help me understand as I am still in the market for a new SUV and plan to keep it for 7 years. Yes I like X5 and I also like the ML 400. But the existing drivers keep posting little issues here and there. Sometimes it is a little discouraging. does it have to do with the fact that these two models are not assembled in Germany? You don't hear as many issues from 5 series, E Class, or the likes as they are assembled in Germany. Sorry if this is a stupid post but I am still trying to learn before making a decision. Thank you all.

You have to appreciate that what you are seeing here is an online community of enthusiasts posting their issues hoping that someone can point them in the right direction. Obviously you are overwhelmingly going to see references to issues because no one tells anyone about all the things with the X5 that are working fine, that's just how people are.

I have had a Lexus RX450h prior to my F15 X5 and the X5 stands up very well compared to the RX. Both mine have been on contract hire so maintenance costs aren't that important to me, except that the contract hire maintenance price will be higher if more maintenance is required over the 4 years I keep them. One think I do notice here in the UK is that he residual price of the F15 is so much higher than the RX was. I now have an F15 costing over £10k more at list over the same contract terms but costing me significantly less per month than the RX did.

With My F15, I have so far put over 12k miles on it in a little over 6 months and barring a minor issue around the start/stop button needing to be pressed a few times to stop which was subsequently resolved with a software update, I have not seen any other real major issues.

Taken in isolation, this and any other forum could seem to give the impression that there are loads of issues with the F15, however taken in the context of all the F15's that must be out there you will see that all the online forums represent a very small proportion of the total ownership.

Don't be swayed by what you read here, having a good online forum presence where people can discuss their issues is a good thing. Just because you can't find stuff online doesn't automatically mean there are no issues. Just before my RX went back I had the main electric motor fail, which resulted in an engine out complete front end dismantle and rebuild as that is the only way to the front transaxle. Probably cost about £5k but was under warranty. When trying to find any info online resulted in virtually no info at all. If you believe Lexus it was the first electric motor failure they had ever seen on the RX but that is whole other story.

As of now, with all I have read and what I have experienced with my F15, I would choose another F15 without hesitation. It's a great SUV, yes there will be issues but many issues discussed here could arguably be attributed to assembly issues and US assembled vehicles don't have the greatest reputation in Europe when compared to European or Japanese assembled vehicles of which I have direct experience.

[GTAbimmerowner]

Originally Posted by GO1234

I noticed from reading between the X5 forum and the ML forum that members have raised issues like wipers adjustment, oil leak, brake calipers rusting, and many other issues. I have never owned a German Car so I have yet to appreciate the experience. So people are buying these cars because of the engine and because it is a BMW or a Mercedes? You would think that a car like this caliber should be free of small issues like this. Those who have driven a Lexus or Nissan always say they never have to deal with any problems. So pls help me understand as I am still in the market for a new SUV and plan to keep it for 7 years. Yes I like X5 and I also like the ML 400. But the existing drivers keep posting little issues here and there. Sometimes it is a little discouraging. does it have to do with the fact that these two models are not assembled in Germany? You don't hear as many issues from 5 series, E Class, or the likes as they are assembled in Germany. Sorry if this is a stupid post but I am still trying to learn before making a decision. Thank you all.

I was in the same position you are several years ago when purchasing my first German ride. I'd only had domestics and Japanese cars and was scared by all the negative comments on the message boards. I don't think many will argue the BMW drivers can be OCD with their vehicles and I think that leads to more issues being raised in message boards. As I have since learned, people love to raise issue when they have problems with their vehicles but don't do the same when they are having a great experience. I bought a BMW 328i, had it for 5 years and 250,000kms and it was unbelievably reliable. By far the most reliable vehicle I've ever owned. I've since moved on to a 2015 X5 and 16,000 kms in I am problem free (unless you count a fog light bulb needing replacement).

The gist is don't worry about all the bad comments you read. BMWs are reliable. Every once in a while, as with all brands, someone is going to get a lemon.

[opasha]

Originally Posted by cobra006

Going back to the question of the OP about the X5 and ML being made here in US having any different quality level, I wondered the same thing. My X5 is my first German car, yet it's made here in US. I had some reservations about it before as I knew the X5 was made here in US, but I figured, if BMW is willing to make all X vehicles in the world in this one plant in US, they better be confident about the build quality compared to other German made cars, right ? I don't know how the US made ML's are quality wise as I never owned one. So far my X5 is pretty solid, aside from some occasional cabin noise when going over hard bumps, but I blame that on the run-flats. Do other people think US made German cars are not as reliable as German made German cars ?

As wjbender said, if you're going to deal with issues, they will be mostly design issues. Thankfully, since the F15 and F16 are built in the US, it makes retrieving parts a heck of a lot easier for the most part. Yes, there will be some rare parts that dealers and online parts stores don't keep in stock here in the states; you will have to get these directly sourced from Germany (even this is pretty quick with GetBMWParts and ECS Tuning). My experience overall for attaining parts has been pretty easy except one fiber optic LED, which I am still waiting for from Germany (3 week wait time since it comes in stock on February 23-24).

[cenix]

Originally Posted by cy07

What German lack of in quality control they more than enough made up for it in design and performance. I wouldn't blink twice about the laughable dealership extended warranty when buying Lexus but now I will give it serious thought with BMW. Especailly when you are planning to own the car 7+ years.

With extended warranty taken into consideration, go get your favorite BMW!

I have never gotten an extended warranty with any car but I am considering heavily for the BMW.

[wjbender]

Originally Posted by cenix

I have never gotten an extended warranty with any car but I am considering heavily for the BMW.

You can wait until the last month of the new car warranty to purchase that. After owning for 4 years you will have a better feel for the frequency of problems and general reliability, thus be in a better position to make that decision.

[Bimar]

Originally Posted by opasha

As wjbender said, if you're going to deal with issues, they will be mostly design issues. Thankfully, since the F15 and F16 are built in the US, it makes retrieving parts a heck of a lot easier for the most part. Yes, there will be some rare parts that dealers and online parts stores don't keep in stock here in the states; you will have to get these directly sourced from Germany (even this is pretty quick with GetBMWParts and ECS Tuning). My experience overall for attaining parts has been pretty easy except one fiber optic LED, which I am still waiting for from Germany (3 week wait time since it comes in stock on February 23-24).

Not always, there is a member on X4 forum waiting parts after an accident for 6 months plus basics like bumper and door yet it's made in the US where they are.

[GeloCH]

Originally Posted by GO1234

I noticed from reading between the X5 forum and the ML forum that members have raised issues like wipers adjustment, oil leak, brake calipers rusting, and many other issues. I have never owned a German Car so I have yet to appreciate the experience. So people are buying these cars because of the engine and because it is a BMW or a Mercedes? You would think that a car like this caliber should be free of small issues like this. Those who have driven a Lexus or Nissan always say they never have to deal with any problems. So pls help me understand as I am still in the market for a new SUV and plan to keep it for 7 years. Yes I like X5 and I also like the ML 400. But the existing drivers keep posting little issues here and there. Sometimes it is a little discouraging. does it have to do with the fact that these two models are not assembled in Germany? You don't hear as many issues from 5 series, E Class, or the likes as they are assembled in Germany. Sorry if this is a stupid post but I am still trying to learn before making a decision. Thank you all.

Hi there.. I'm happy to say that after 9 months and over 10,000 kms I haven't had any problems so far... (just regretting that i didn't join this forum earlier.. before i decided on the options and placed the order). I had a Honda CRV for 4 years and it gave us quite a few problems that we had to call a lawyer on.

[opasha]

Originally Posted by X4guy

Not always, there is a member on X4 forum waiting parts after an accident for 6 months plus basics like bumper and door yet it's made in the US where they are.

Ah really? That sucks . Well, I hope this isn't the case for our members. I've had pretty good turn around on my parts even some straight from Germany (granted they weren't huge parts like bumper etc).