Lawyer explaining aftermarket parts and warranty

[Bowser330]

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/will-m...ast-1731182177

(1) Magnuson-Moss act was meant to protect consumer from being required to purchase oem parts for the vehicle without the risk of losing warranty coverage. It does state that if the manufacturer can prove the aftermarket part caused an issue that they can deny the related claim.

(2) Proof for civil litigation is based on the preponderance (what is most likely than not the cause)

Your warranty cannot be legally voided entirely however specific warranty claims related to the aftermarket parts can be legally denied if the manufacturer can show a connection, that is more likely than not, between the failure and the aftermarket part.

So mod at your own risk, the manufactures can and will win unless the failure truly is a defected part like the n54 hpfp issue. But in those cases it took numerous issues to warrant a class action lawsuit before BMW was forced to accept responsibility and put out a voluntary recall.

[mike@x-ph.com]

From what you have posted, it shows that the dealership has to prove the aftermarket part caused the failure. Having an aftermarket part does not automatically void your warranty claim.
Is that correct?

[jwzimm]

The point with all of this is that the Dealer can do what they will do. In order to enforce the MMA you will need to bring civil action against them if you feel your warranty claim was denied improperly. That will take time and money. The Dealer and the OEM have great lawyers on their side as well as the technical expertise to draw the required link between the failure and the aftermarket part (if there is a link). If they denied the claim in the first place they believe there is a link.

Bottom line, as OP stated, you mod at your own risk. You can fight over a warranty denial but at the end of the day, if the aftermarket part did cause the failure, it is your responsibility, not the dealer's.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by jwzimm

Bottom line, as OP stated, you mod at your own risk. You can fight over a warranty denial but at the end of the day, if the aftermarket part did cause the failure, it is your responsibility, not the dealer's.

Agree 100%

We can all agree on this. If the mod caused the failure, you are paying for the repair.

The real question is. If the mod did not cause the failure, does the dealer have the right to deny your claim ?

[rr006rbc]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Agree 100%

We can all agree on this. If the mod caused the failure, you are paying for the repair.

The real question is. If the mod did not cause the failure, does the dealer have the right to deny your claim ?

They cannot deny the diagnosis that goes into finding the root cause of the failure. They may deny the failed component AFTER being 100% certain that the aftermarket modification has caused it to malfunction. But they cannot simply deny warranty on the vehicle due to a specific modification from the get go.

[A Frankfurt]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Agree 100%

We can all agree on this. If the mod caused the failure, you are paying for the repair.

The real question is. If the mod did not cause the failure, does the dealer have the right to deny your claim ?

I guess the real scenario would be, who would spend the time/effort and money to fight the dealership.

I know of a guy who's engine failed on his E60 M5.
His claim was denied because he serviced his oil himself and used a "non-factory BMW" engine oil filter. It was a German brand as well, not a cheap autozone filter.
4 months of his lawyers and fighting with dealership and warranty group and still denied.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Autohaus Frankfurt

I guess the real scenario would be, who would spend the time/effort and money to fight the dealership.

I know of a guy who's engine failed on his E60 M5.
His claim was denied because he serviced his oil himself and used a "non-factory BMW" engine oil filter. It was a German brand as well, not a cheap autozone filter.
4 months of his lawyers and fighting with dealership and warranty group and still denied.

If i file a claim against BMW, i wont be alone.

My lawyer will spend couple months finding more people that had similar issues and before the trial begin there would be tens if not hundreds of claims against BMW joined together.

If they do not have the right to deny your warranty, they will not deny your warranty. That's why we have laws

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

At the end of the day you don't want to get into legal action with BMW. Usually if you have to hire a lawyer, etc. it may cost you more then the work on the car.

The oil thing is crazy though. There must be something else to the story as I can't see them denying a claim because the oil wasn't changed by the dealer. They would have had to of proven the oil filter failed. Maybe it did, but that would be bizarre. Oil filter isn't a high tech part.

Mike

[GhostM4]

My service adviser told me when i took my car in for the 1200 mile service to make sure i take my car in for the maintenance, he said it is there for a reason and that if i fail to take it in and something goes wrong they can deny responsibility. Maybe thats their way to keep the cars on check.

[A Frankfurt]

Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com

At the end of the day you don't want to get into legal action with BMW. Usually if you have to hire a lawyer, etc. it may cost you more then the work on the car.

The oil thing is crazy though. There must be something else to the story as I can't see them denying a claim because the oil wasn't changed by the dealer. They would have had to of proven the oil filter failed. Maybe it did, but that would be bizarre. Oil filter isn't a high tech part.

Mike

I saw it in writing after it was all over.
It was denied by using a non factory engine oil filter.
I guess it was written somewhere in fine print about parts and because it was not a BMW oil filter and it was an engine issue, denied.

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by Autohaus Frankfurt

I saw it in writing after it was all over.
It was denied by using a non factory engine oil filter.
I guess it was written somewhere in fine print about parts and because it was not a BMW oil filter and it was an engine issue, denied.

That is so interesting only because the MMA may appear to protect against that very thing, but it doesn't really.

The issue with the intake is that BMW presented a case that the aftermarket part (more likely than not) caused the failure. Case closed.

Keep in mind, we are all benefiting from the MMA right now. The fact that we aren't forced to buy BMW parts is a testament to the act working. Can you imagine the prices of BMW parts if we were legally required to buy them? yikes! However the manufacturer has to be protected from someone using bad parts. Unknowingly or not, the intake company is the one responsible no the consumer. However the intake company may have their own protections/disclaimers/etc. in place.

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

If i file a claim against BMW, i wont be alone.

My lawyer will spend couple months finding more people that had similar issues and before the trial begin there would be tens if not hundreds of claims against BMW joined together.

If they do not have the right to deny your warranty, they will not deny your warranty. That's why we have laws

Very smart, this is the only way you'll be heard.

It may not be more likely than not that the aftermarket part caused the failure if numerous cars completely stock also had the same failure.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

Very smart, this is the only way you'll be heard.

It may not be more likely than not that the aftermarket part caused the failure if numerous cars completely stock also had the same failure.

Agree.

[heckyeahbro69]

Basically you need to find a good service advisor and/or technician who is mod friendly, and be up front about mods. Don't hide stuff, or be a jerk. I would be willing to bet every dealer has at least 1 guy who is a real enthusiast and will try to get things covered on a modded car. Go to local bmw meets and ask around.

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by heckyeahbro69

Basically you need to find a good service advisor and/or technician who is mod friendly, and be up front about mods. Don't hide stuff, or be a jerk. I would be willing to bet every dealer has at least 1 guy who is a real enthusiast and will try to get things covered on a modded car. Go to local bmw meets and ask around.

My local dealership is not considered mod friendly at all. Whenever i go there im always friendly to everyone, i dont tell them how to do their job although sometimes i know in advance what is wrong with the car. I let them diagnose it and wait for them to call me.

All my cars are FBO, never had a single problem getting work covered by warranty

[Bowser330]

Originally Posted by mike@x-ph.com

Agree 100%

We can all agree on this. If the mod caused the failure, you are paying for the repair.

The real question is. If the mod did not cause the failure, does the dealer have the right to deny your claim ?

If they did the research and it was proven that the mod didn't cause the failure, that it was an OEM failure, the dealer doesn't have the legal right to deny your claim, but that doesn't mean they do that all the time.

The mod is the scapegoat, if you go in with the mod on your car for a warranty claim they could be spending the time proving the mod caused the problem rather than finding the real problem. sounds like youve had great experience with your local dealer, that is very encouraging to hear.

The consumer lawyer in the video did suggest you de-mod when taking the car in for a warranty claim. However he said to do that because the issue may subside when de-modded, he didn't mention anything about withholding information from the dealer.

[MyFragileHalogen]

My SA today told me they are fine with mods, but if there is a link between failure and the aftermarket part, they will not cover it. However, he added that what they cover is their defect caused malfunction/failure. When something happens, they will look at the history with the specific model if there has been similar issue from known defect. That implies, if there comes a failure that they haven't seen and they saw a aftermarket part related to the failed component, it will be harder to get it covered.

[Mike@N54Tuning.com]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

My SA today told me they are fine with mods, but if there is a link between failure and the aftermarket part, they will not cover it. However, he added that what they cover is their defect caused malfunction/failure. When something happens, they will look at the history with the specific model if there has been similar issue from known defect. That implies, if there comes a failure that they haven't seen and they saw a aftermarket part related to the failed component, it will be harder to get it covered.

That is the sensible position a dealer should take. Doesn't always happen though.

Mike

[mike@x-ph.com]

Originally Posted by MyFragileHalogen

My SA today told me they are fine with mods, but if there is a link between failure and the aftermarket part, they will not cover it. However, he added that what they cover is their defect caused malfunction/failure. When something happens, they will look at the history with the specific model if there has been similar issue from known defect. That implies, if there comes a failure that they haven't seen and they saw a aftermarket part related to the failed component, it will be harder to get it covered.

Sounds like a reasonable SA

[Bounty]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

http://oppositelock.kinja.com/will-m...ast-1731182177

(1) Magnuson-Moss act was meant to protect consumer from being required to purchase oem parts for the vehicle without the risk of losing warranty coverage. It does state that if the manufacturer can prove the aftermarket part caused an issue that they can deny the related claim.

(2) Proof for civil litigation is based on the preponderance (what is most likely than not the cause)

Your warranty cannot be legally voided entirely however specific warranty claims related to the aftermarket parts can be legally denied if the manufacturer can show a connection, that is more likely than not, between the failure and the aftermarket part.

So mod at your own risk, the manufactures can and will win unless the failure truly is a defected part like the n54 hpfp issue. But in those cases it took numerous issues to warrant a class action lawsuit before BMW was forced to accept responsibility and put out a voluntary recall.

This gets asked often so I'm now resorting to simply copy/pasting my response to a previous thread regarding aftermarket modifications, warranty coverage, the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act of 1979, etc....

While the Magnusson Moss Warranty Act does indeed provide protections for the consumer that a dealer/manufacturer must prove a particular part is the cause of failure I think people can put waaaaay too much faith in that and forget one common human trait...ingenuity.

For example, in my previous life as a service writer for a large domestic car manufacturer we had a sports car come in with a blown motor. The vehicle had no external modifications installed at the time it was brought in for service with the exception of a drop-in K&N filter. That's a modification that 99.99% of people would tell you is completely safe and would NEVER be an issue when seeking warranty service as it has a CARB # (means nothing), is sold at local auto parts stores (means even less), and really does not place the engines outside their normal operating parameters (debateable).

When the K&N was cited as cause for the failure the owner wrote a letter stating this was not possible and he was certain it could not be the filter as he had cleaned it per K&N specifications with a K&N brand cleaning kit just prior to engine failure...and that was ultimately his undoing.

As many of you know, the recommended procedure for cleaning a K&N is to first clean with their cleaning spray solution to remove dirt/debris/dust and then re-oil with the provided K&N brand filter oil. It was "determined" that the owner "over oiled" the filter, that some of this oil seeped past the filter and coated the exposed MAF wire element, and thus caused improper AF ratios the engine could not adjust for and ultimately caused engine failure.

Is that a load of BS? Probably. Did it get the dealer/manufacturer out of liability for the repair? Absolutely. Modifying your vehicle in ANY way is much like financial investing. Your level of modification, like your level of investing, should be a calculated evaluation of your level of risk adversement. If you are 100% dependent on the factory warranty and want to ensure you do not risk that, then any modification is not for you. There is still operator error as a factor even with this warranty in place (think over-rev's).

The final decision is up to you, but no flash or piggy-back tune (even Dinan) will cover you completely....Magnusson Moss or no Magnusson Moss. The bottom line is that the TL/DR answer to the question of "which of these mods void my warranty" is technically "none" in regards to vehicle-wide coverage. For specific part/issue coverage the answer to the question "which of these mods void my warranty coverage for this issue" is technically "all of them" should your particular dealer deem it so and be able to put together even a semi-plausible causal relationship

[Bowser330]

Thanks, good post to paste here.

Reason I created new post was I thought ppl would appreciate hearing directly from a consumer protection lawyer for a change.

[Bounty]

Originally Posted by Bowser330

Thanks, good post to paste here.

Reason I created new post was I thought ppl would appreciate hearing directly from a consumer protection lawyer for a change.

Absolutely! Just saves me typing at this point and gets the answer to the widest possible audience seeking that particular info. Love the information you dug up from an attorney in your highly-informative post. Good job...