Help me understand the carbon fiber for our ///M cars

[Apex Everything]

So, carbon fiber arguably the most loved substance on cars, but there is significant confusion/lies/hidden truths about the substance and it makes it hard to know what you got and what you are purchasing.

From what I have seen with the exception of a few companies like Mode Carbon (I could even be wrong about them) only OEM companies like BMW make full carbon fiber parts.

Take the OEM BMW Carbon Fiber mirror caps. They are nice shiny carbon fiber on the outside and sexy raw carbon fiber on the inside. The whole item is legit 100% carbon fiber.

Now there is some other knock off brand selling carbon fiber mirror caps (technosomething?) well the exterior looks like carbon fiber to me, but the interior of the cap is plain plastic black. Are they real carbon fiber at all? Are they 10% layer of glossed carbon fiber and the rest is plain plastic?

What is everyones thoughts on carbon fiber?

[Yeru]

As the saying goes, all that glitters is not gold. As you probably know, the CF manufacturing process is still expensive based on current manufacturing processes and technologies.

So just as I wouldn't expect to get a diamond ring from Tiffany's for $300, neither would I expect CF to be cheap; if a new part is cheap, then compromises have been made in the materials and manufacturing stages to bring those costs down.

Those compromises over time can become obviously apparent; e.g. I've seen 10+ year old E46s with so-called CF hoods, scorched and faded by sun damage, making what was once a beautiful car, quite FUGLY.

[cenix]

You also have to realize the economics of it all. CF is a purposeful application but in its proper iteration quite costly. For the masses, it is best to offer something with the "look" without the price.

I can attest that the OE BMW/M Performance CF parts are high quality, thus their high prices...of which many people complain about without regard to quality or manufacture. It's a different demographic, different strokes for different folks.

[///M Power-Belgium]

Originally Posted by Apex Everything

So, carbon fiber arguably the most loved substance on cars, but there is significant confusion/lies/hidden truths about the substance and it makes it hard to know what you got and what you are purchasing.

From what I have seen with the exception of a few companies like Mode Carbon (I could even be wrong about them) only OEM companies like BMW make full carbon fiber parts.

Take the OEM BMW Carbon Fiber mirror caps. They are nice shiny carbon fiber on the outside and sexy raw carbon fiber on the inside. The whole item is legit 100% carbon fiber.

Now there is some other knock off brand selling carbon fiber mirror caps (technosomething?) well the exterior looks like carbon fiber to me, but the interior of the cap is plain plastic black. Are they real carbon fiber at all? Are they 10% layer of glossed carbon fiber and the rest is plain plastic?

What is everyones thoughts on carbon fiber?

Watch how BMW manufactures the carbon fiber roof for our ///M3 E92

[Ao1]

I think there is a long term durability issue of lacquer on CF. I had an M3 CF roof with a tiny patch that had delaminated. When I got it re-lacquered by a specialist they said the lacquer over the entire roof just peeled off and it was common to see this. The roof was 5 years old. Makes me wonder what we will see on the i3 and i8 in a few years.

[CHE///MIST3]

I have been producing carbon fiber parts for radio controlled aircraft for several years now, and one of the biggest qualms I have with some eBay carbon parts for cars is that many manufacturers just don't use UV-resistant epoxy in their vacuum process, or laminate. Most automotive clearcoats are UV resistant by nature so this is usually not the problem, unless they use a very cheap, non-urethane clear coat.

Many time you also see the inside of these parts APPEAR to be carbon on the inside, but there IS such a thing as black-tinted fiber fiberglass! This can be used inside and out and give the look of real carbon fiber. Usually an all-carbon part will be very lightweight, especially if it was made through vacuum infusion.

Ultimately, the fit/finish and weight of the part tells you a lot about what you have purchased....with that goes the price.

GM

[Ao1]

UV would be a prime suspect for de-bonding, but presumably BMW used high quality UV resistant products. On the roof I had re-lacquered there was a small area that had visibly de-bonded due to a chip in the lacquer, however the entire roof was not well bonded. It peeled off easily. I would never have known unless it was the for the stone chip. Is it just UV or could there be other issues? Differential movement between the lacquer and CF? Difficulty in bonding to CF?

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Ao1

UV would be a prime suspect for de-bonding, but presumably BMW used high quality UV resistant products. On the roof I had re-lacquered there was a small area that had visibly de-bonded due to a chip in the lacquer, however the entire roof was not well bonded. It peeled off easily. I would never have known unless it was the for the stone chip. Is it just UV or could there be other issues? Differential movement between the lacquer and CF? Difficulty in bonding to CF?

Large surfaces that are parallel to the road are the most susceptible to UV damage (roof, hood, trunk). They receive direct UV all of the time. This is why you see a lot of poorly-cared for red cars with pink hoods.

Wax or sealant should provide a good barrier. The epoxy is clearcoated AFAIK but obviously it is still susceptible to UV damage.

As far as the other questions in this thread, yes, most of the cheaper aftermarket stuff you see is just a single layer of CF on top of a piece of molded plastic. Those parts are purely cosmetic. You'll get almost no benefit over the raw plastic underneath.

[Ao1]

Agreed, but taking the example of red paint the pigments used for red are prone to UV damage. The UV passes through the top coat and discolours the paint pigment underneath. It does not cause the top coat to become detached from the paint.

[nholmes]

CF isn't cheap, so to cut costs but still give people that fancy expensive look companies often do CF overlays into other materials such as plastic or fiberglass. Most of those cheap CF diffusers out there are overlays.

If cost isn't an issue and you want real weight savings (and in some cases, structural integrity) spend the money and get the real deal.

Some people are just shallow and want to be perceived has having higher financial status, so they buy cheap CF (or real CF if they have the money) to project the image of being wealthy.

I think CF looks cool, which is the reason I have a Stilo CF helmet. I also like that it's a bit lighter than my older HJC helmet.

YMMV.

[burtonsbs5114]

As stated above, there are basically two types of carbon fiber products:

1) 100% real carbon fiber
2) real carbon fiber top layer with plastic or fiberglass underside.

I guess a 3rd option would be a plastic/fiberglass part painted to look like carbon fiber.

[dparm]

Originally Posted by Ao1

Agreed, but taking the example of red paint the pigments used for red are prone to UV damage. The UV passes through the top coat and discolours the paint pigment underneath. It does not cause the top coat to become detached from the paint.

Depends if it's two-stage or three-stage paint. The reason I cited "pink" is because some shades of red are a cheaper/simpler two-stage. On three stage, the clear will oxidize and turn white, then the pink happens.

[2013M3]

Originally Posted by burtonsbs5114

As stated above, there are basically two types of carbon fiber products:

1) 100% real carbon fiber
2) real carbon fiber top layer with plastic or fiberglass underside.

I guess a 3rd option would be a plastic/fiberglass part painted to look like carbon fiber.

Ok. So how does one get the 100% real CF? who makes them?

[UPSROD]

Originally Posted by 2013M3

Ok. So how does one get the 100% real CF? who makes them?

BMW M Performance!

[Yeru]

Originally Posted by UPSROD

BMW M Performance!

+1. I once saw an E46 M3 with a so-called CF hood that had terrible UV damage from the Texas heat; it looked almost as if it had been roasted in a bonfire. It turned a once-beautiful car into an ugly "don't give a shit" monstrosity.

[GRUESOM3]

You can also have parts hydrodipped and they look exactly like carbon fiber as well aside from what was mentioned earlier.

[2013M3]

Originally Posted by Yeru

+1. I once saw an E46 M3 with a so-called CF hood that had terrible UV damage from the Texas heat; it looked almost as if it had been roasted in a bonfire. It turned a once-beautiful car into an ugly "don't give a shit" monstrosity.

They don't make the center console... grrr

[dkracing]

Summary from OP and everyone:

There are four types of carbon fiber, in order of their quality:
- OEM Carbon Fiber - the cream of the crop, 100% carbon fiber, raw carbon on the hidden side, potentially OEM stickers on the hidden side
- Aftermarket Real Carbon Fiber - Quality attempts to be on par with OEM, but not made from the OEM mold, so fitment is not always 100%, but it is 100% carbon fiber
- Aftermarket coated carbon fiber - Items are usually 90% plastic, with a 10% carbon fiber real carbon fiber covering
- Carbon fiber stickers/decals - Imitating the object is made out of carbon fiber, but it maybe a regular body panel, plastic, etc.

[ilikebmxbikes]

Originally Posted by dkracing

Summary from OP and everyone:

There are four types of carbon fiber, in order of their quality:
- OEM Carbon Fiber - the cream of the crop, 100% carbon fiber, raw carbon on the hidden side, potentially OEM stickers on the hidden side
- Aftermarket Real Carbon Fiber - Quality attempts to be on par with OEM, but not made from the OEM mold, so fitment is not always 100%, but it is 100% carbon fiber
- Aftermarket coated carbon fiber - Items are usually 90% plastic, with a 10% carbon fiber real carbon fiber covering
- Carbon fiber stickers/decals - Imitating the object is made out of carbon fiber, but it maybe a regular body panel, plastic, etc.

Pretty much.

You get what you pay for. There are some aftermarket brands these days who are producing some fantastic parts. 3D scanning and 3D printing have greatly increased the possibilities to make complicated parts with incredible fitment.

So many people on these forums review their carbon parts and claim great fitment only to post a photo of an item which not only doesn't fit well but has terrible weave. Some people just have to see a quality part next to the replica to see the difference but even then most do not care.

[Yeru]

Originally Posted by 2013M3

They don't make the center console... grrr

I may be wrong, but iND had something a few years back for racing applications; not sure though if that would delete the passenger air bag.

[cvstar9M3]

Other than oem, any companies making quality cf? I'm particularly interested in interior components. Thanks.