Need help getting front struts out

[Mandinca]

What I have done so far :

Removed the wheel.
Unbolted the end link from the strut tower.
Removed the caliper and hung out of the way.
Moved the sensor wires.
Loosened the front and main control arms at the frame.
Removed the pinch bolt and spread the joint.
Unbolted the top of the strut tower.

The shock doesn't turn in the knuckle, even when I pull it out far enough for the guide pin to clear the pinch. I got it that far out by tapping down on the knuckle with a hammer. It will wobble back and forth a little so it's definitely loose. If I could lower the knuckle about two inches further I'd have enough room.

However, my issue is that I can't push the whole hub assembly down far enough for the top of the strut to even clear the strut tower, never mind the fender lip....not a chance !
I figured it was the steering rod that was stopping it so I removed the ball joint from the end of the steering rod where it bolts into the knuckle.
Still nowhere near enough clearance.

It feels like the steering tie rod is in the way, even when I unbolted it. The knuckle pushes down until it hits the tie rod then gets stuck. Is there a knack to this to make more room up top so it clears the fender ?

Just thinking, was there enough clearance by turning the steering left or right while the bottom of the strut was still seated in the knuckle. When I tried it like that I couldn't clear the strut tower but it was close. I then put it back in the tower and tried loosening the bottom (pinch) and tried removing it that way....is that where my issue is ? Do I leave it all the way in the pinch and somehow manoevre the top so it swings clear ? If so.....how ?

For now I have put it back together but if someone has some insight I will try again rather than pay to get it done.

What am I doing wrong ?

EDIT - should I have used the spring compressor and compressed the spring as far as it would go while it was still in the car so it would be shorter and therefore have enough clearance ? Is that enough ?

[iminhell1]

I use a long bar and pry the control arms down, stand on the bar ... I have a 6' pipe.

What you are fighting is 'bushing windup'.

[Mandinca]

Originally Posted by iminhell1

I use a long bar and pry the control arms down, stand on the bar ... I have a 6' pipe.

What you are fighting is 'bushing windup'.

I know what you mean but the steering tie rod is in the way and will not move any lower out of the way. I physically can't push the knuckle down further without bending the tie rod or wrecking the steering rack.

[iminhell1]

hmm.

Did you remove the single nut or the 3 from the top of the strut?
should be the 3, and the center should remain.

I guess I never had an issue. I left the brakes on etc. All I remove is the wheel, the sway link, udo the pinch and top mount, pry arm down ... and it comes out. Rotate the knuckle to give room if need be.

[beattiecj]

Originally Posted by iminhell1

hmm.

Did you remove the single nut or the 3 from the top of the strut?
should be the 3, and the center should remain.

I guess I never had an issue. I left the brakes on etc. All I remove is the wheel, the sway link, udo the pinch and top mount, pry arm down ... and it comes out. Rotate the knuckle to give room if need be.

Do as described as above, I stood on the hub/wheel studs I added. It feels insane to stand and press down because it feels like you are going to break something but it will eventually come out. You may also rotate the top hat to get the three bolts out from the fender, Just be careful not to scratch the fender.


Also get a schwaben spindal housing spreader to allow the bottom of the strut to come out, it's $30 but it makes a huge difference.

Edit: no need for a spring compressor tool

[gjm120]

Did you loosen the control arms at the subframe? That will allow them to move downward easily. You will have to find and apply to torque specs to re-tighten them.

If you completely detached the tie rod from the steering knuckle I'm surprised it's still giving you trouble? Maybe it's better at this stage to just detach to 2 control arms from the knuckle and pull the whole knuckle-strut assemble out. It will be heavy.

[Mandinca]

Thanks all for the input, much appreciated.

I removed the 3 nuts, not the center one.
When I pushed the knuckle down I felt like I was hyper-extending the steering rack. The rubber boot was stretched out and the tie rod was at a 45 degree angle downwards because the knuckle was pulling it downwards. Because it was pulling it so taught I undid the end of the steering tie rod from the knuckle but it still just gets in the way. There didn't seem like there was a way to move it completely out of the way so when I pushed down on the knuckle the end of the tie rod with the ball joint got trapped underneath the knuckle and wouldn't allow the knuckle to move down further.
I guess I could undo the control arms from the knuckle, just seems unnecessary when I know it should be possible to do it without taking the knuckle out.
I know that it was said that I don't need to compress the spring first nut I've seen others that have done it, I'll try this route next weekend when I try again. In the meantime does anyone know what size the nuts are on the knuckle end of the control arms - they look pretty big, maybe an inch ? I just want to make sure I have the tools ready in case I go that route when compressing the spring doesn't work....I've had one day wasted trying to do this so next time I want to get it done.

I also bought a spindle spreader but it was for an Audi and barely spread the spindle before it rotated to the narrow part of the tool - not much spreading capability. I tried a flat pry bar, next time I'll buy the Schwaben and if that fails bang a cold chisel in a little way.

[iminhell1]

A cheap way to get around using a compressor might be to clamp the springs when the car is on the ground. Maybe 6 or so (per side) of those big zip ties maybe?
Reason I say that is I couldn't find much room to get a compressor on there.

Just a quick look, the 1/2" wide ones look to be rated for 250# each.
Spring pressure per side is probably around 2,000#. So 10 - 12 of them should be good and safe.

[juld0zer]

Originally Posted by iminhell1

A cheap way to get around using a compressor might be to clamp the springs when the car is on the ground. Maybe 6 or so (per side) of those big zip ties maybe?
Reason I say that is I couldn't find much room to get a compressor on there.

Just a quick look, the 1/2" wide ones look to be rated for 250# each.
Spring pressure per side is probably around 2,000#. So 10 - 12 of them should be good and safe.

That is pretty ballsy lol

Once you slacken the lower arm pinchbolt at the subframe end, it will give you heaps more freedom and you won't be fighting the bushing or damaging it by jumping on it. If need be, you may have to disconnect it completely, which will give you additional range to swing the knuckle out.
Slacken also the caster bush pinchbolt and really you shouldn't have much issue after that. I've never compressed the spring inside the car.

The audi spreader tool is almost the same as the BMW one. Insert it perpendicular to where the pinch bolt goes thru

[Mandinca]

Originally Posted by juld0zer

That is pretty ballsy lol

Once you slacken the lower arm pinchbolt at the subframe end, it will give you heaps more freedom and you won't be fighting the bushing or damaging it by jumping on it. If need be, you may have to disconnect it completely, which will give you additional range to swing the knuckle out.
Slacken also the caster bush pinchbolt and really you shouldn't have much issue after that. I've never compressed the spring inside the car.

The audi spreader tool is almost the same as the BMW one. Insert it perpendicular to where the pinch bolt goes thru

Zip ties....not that I'm even considering this but how would you pull them tight to compress the spring.

Anyway, I loosened the control arm at the frame end (behind the wheel well) as well as the caster arm (is that what that is?) at the frame end. I looked for a picture online and the best I could come up with was this image taken from underneath a MB but it looks almost the same. Once I had both arms loose I tried to press down on the knuckle but the steering tie rod was still in the way. When I say in the way, I mean that the tie rod just pulled completely tight and wouldn't allow the knuckle any more downward movement. So I undid it, that helped a little but it was still in the way. Am I thinking that because the control arm bolts are loose that the control arms swing freely when in fact they don't because they are bush bound ? (was that the term used?)
That Audi spreader was not spreading the pinch enough IMO. That's one part of the problem. As I pushed the knuckle down it would tilt and bind immediately. I moved the strut maybe an inch before the tie rod came into play, enough to clear the guide pin but the strut wouldn't move around in the knuckle, even though it was undone at both ends. Pushing the knuckle down is key, obviously, but I'm worried that I will break the steering rack by putting that much pressure on it. It can't be good for the inner tie rod being forced to bend that much. I popped a CV joint on an Audi doing exactly this just last year....I don't want to do the same to my steering.

[gjm120]

I've had people tell me I wasted money buying a knuckle spreader. Apparently people have been able to spread it enough with a large bladed screwdriver or a smallish chisel.

[MightyMouseTech]

Best thing to do is remove the knuckle with the strut and separate them off the car.

[gjm120]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Best thing to do is remove the knuckle with the strut and separate them off the car.

Agree. I did just that when changing struts last year. Was also changing control arms at the same time so only 1 additional item loosened (the tie rod).

It is fairly heavy to horse around so you may need a little help.

[Mandinca]

I'm beginning to think that may just be the easiest way, heavy though, even without the rotor. Floor jack and a friend should work. Does anyone see a benefit to either way - separating the ball joints or just unbolting both arms at the bushing end ? I would think that the ball joints would be more difficult.

[gjm120]

It's pretty easy with a friend.
Just be aware of the proper way to tighten the knuckle end and the bushing end of the control arms. The knuckle end should be torqued with the car off the ground. The subframe/bushing end is with the car at ride height. I recall the knuckle end is 122 ft-lbs and the subframe end is either 50 or 72 ft-lbs + 90 deg additional. Check this a good source.

[juld0zer]

If yours is an M sport, you should be able to remove the strut with the knuckle in the car without the spring compressed.

Could your strut actually be bent? That's the only time i normally encounter issues freeing a strut from a knuckle. They almost always bend in the same spot because the wheel impact pushes it inwards at the weakest point (where the strut tapers to fit into the knuckle).

To get bent struts out, you'll need a press or deadblow hammer. Whatever you have available. The strut and knuckle will need to be removed as a whole.

Sometimes the area where you insert the spreader has been chewed away by previous attempts using chisels, prybars, screwdrivers, 1/4-3/8dr adapters, making the proper tool less effective. Usually you only get one or two goes using the improper tool because the aluminium is very soft.
The solution is to have a look and choose a virgin spot. You may need two spreaders.

[Mandinca]

Originally Posted by juld0zer

If yours is an M sport, you should be able to remove the strut with the knuckle in the car without the spring compressed.

Could your strut actually be bent? That's the only time i normally encounter issues freeing a strut from a knuckle. They almost always bend in the same spot because the wheel impact pushes it inwards at the weakest point (where the strut tapers to fit into the knuckle).

To get bent struts out, you'll need a press or deadblow hammer. Whatever you have available. The strut and knuckle will need to be removed as a whole.

Sometimes the area where you insert the spreader has been chewed away by previous attempts using chisels, prybars, screwdrivers, 1/4-3/8dr adapters, making the proper tool less effective. Usually you only get one or two goes using the improper tool because the aluminium is very soft.
The solution is to have a look and choose a virgin spot. You may need two spreaders.

It doesn't look bent but I didn't look too carefully. Not an M Sport so if the compressors don't work I'll use a chisel on the pinch to widen it then undo the bushings completely. Either way, it's coming off.....

[Mandinca]

Originally Posted by gjm120

It's pretty easy with a friend.
Just be aware of the proper way to tighten the knuckle end and the bushing end of the control arms. The knuckle end should be torqued with the car off the ground. The subframe/bushing end is with the car at ride height. I recall the knuckle end is 122 ft-lbs and the subframe end is either 50 or 72 ft-lbs + 90 deg additional. Check this a good source.

Thanks, I'm aware of the requirement for the bushing being loaded before torquing, I'll look up the correct torque settings again....I just did it by feel since I know I'm attacking it again in a few days.

[iminhell1]

Originally Posted by juld0zer

That is pretty ballsy lol

People don't even know.
Had a buddy years ago lower a neon with zipties. Really wish these photos still existed so I could have proof to tease him with now.

Originally Posted by Mandinca

Zip ties....not that I'm even considering this but how would you pull them tight to compress the spring.

Just snug them while the car is on the ground. With the weight of the car on the spring you'll gain the 2" you need later on.
I know it sounds stupid, until you consider how many heavy objects are actually shipped with zipties holding them in place. An engine to a pallet for example (that green plastic banding stuff).

[WDE82]

Back to basics:

OP did you removed the strut bolt or the strut mount nuts (3 on the body)?

Anyway, I seem to remember taking those three nuts out after loosening the pinch bolt, but not sliding the strut out of the knuckle and getting the strut mount to clear the fender. Then I must've pulled the strut out while my buddy jammed a big flat-head into the pinch bolt gap to spread the knuckle.

Originally Posted by iminhell1

People don't even know.
Had a buddy years ago lower a neon with zipties. Really wish these photos still existed so I could have proof to tease him with now.






Just snug them while the car is on the ground. With the weight of the car on the spring you'll gain the 2" you need later on.
I know it sounds stupid, until you consider how many heavy objects are actually shipped with zipties holding them in place. An engine to a pallet for example (that green plastic banding stuff).

That plastic banding is fiber reinforced. Zip ties are not. But if you put enough of them, there is strength in numbers.

[Mandinca]

Originally Posted by WDE82

Back to basics:

OP did you removed the strut bolt or the strut mount nuts (3 on the body)?

Anyway, I seem to remember taking those three nuts out after loosening the pinch bolt, but not sliding the strut out of the knuckle and getting the strut mount to clear the fender. Then I must've pulled the strut out while my buddy jammed a big flat-head into the pinch bolt gap to spread the knuckle.




That plastic banding is fiber reinforced. Zip ties are not. But if you put enough of them, there is strength in numbers.

Yeah, I undid the three nuts on top of the strut tower. The knuckle wouldn't slide down enough for the bottom of the strut to come out, nor would the knuckle bend down enough for the top of the strut to clear the fender.
So, maybe the pinch was still binding or maybe the bushings were binding. Having watched a few videos on swapping control arms I'm going to just remove the whole assembly (strut, hub, knuckle and control arms) in one piece then separate the strut from the assembly on the garage floor. It's overkill but it will get it done.

[WDE82]

Originally Posted by Mandinca

Yeah, I undid the three nuts on top of the strut tower. The knuckle wouldn't slide down enough for the bottom of the strut to come out, nor would the knuckle bend down enough for the top of the strut to clear the fender.
So, maybe the pinch was still binding or maybe the bushings were binding. Having watched a few videos on swapping control arms I'm going to just remove the whole assembly (strut, hub, knuckle and control arms) in one piece then separate the strut from the assembly on the garage floor. It's overkill but it will get it done.

Cool. The reason I asked a seemingly ridiculous question is because I've seen people get stuck on jobs like this because of a simple error like that.