How much negative camber?

[Tommm]

I have an 07 128i with 60,000 miles. About 7,000 miles ago i installed Koni sport shocks with springs from a 135i. When the car was aligned at the local brake store the left side was .1deg out of spec positive. I bought the Dinan fixed plates and the Whiteline rear inserts that have to be installed.

In the last week, after my brother used the car for an autocross school and we both autocrossed the car I hear a small clicking from the front end. I plan on installing the fixed plates soon.

I want a little more negative camber for the half dozen days a year it goes on the track but also want to preserve the street tires for the roughly 17,000 miles a year i drive it on the street.

Since I have to take half the suspension off to get the plates on, I think I might as well also change the control arms while I am in there. Another half dozen bolts, and I don't have to open the car up for a loooooong time I hope.

Will i be over doing it for the street if i put the M3 arms in along with the fixed plates? From what I read, i think I would get about 1.5 deg additional negative if i do both? Is that too much for a primarily street driven car?

Also, I see a lot of places selling other than Lemforder. rmeuropean.com has TRW, Delphi, Lemforder Meyle HD and Karlyn. Between TRW, Delphi and Lemforder is there any quality difference (heard too much bad about Meyle, and never heard of Karlyn)? Delphi is about a few bucks cheaper than TRW or Lemforder. Is it a savings of $60 or an invite to do the job again? I know Delphi used to be AC Delco and is big in the OEM OES/suspension market.

Thanks
Tom

[gjm120]

The M3 control arms are not overkill at all. There will be a little bit more harshness and noise but well worth the steering feel. I left my strut alignment pins in so didn't get much additional camber.

TRW or genuine BMW (made by TRW) are the only choices for the M arms as far as I know.

I can't address your other questions on additional camber.

[MightyMouseTech]

Perfect for street driving. Still not enough for track use.

The OE ones are made by TRW. Get the TRW version which just has the //M emblem ground off for 1/3 the price for the exact same part.

[chris_flies]

I have Dinan plates and M control arms and I'm not having wear issues yet (I've only had them on since December, and swapped to summer tires recently). I mostly drive in a suburban setting, lots of turns at speed, stop lights, etc. From December to March, when I pulled the winter tires off, there wasn't any uneven wear as far as I can tell.

I got the TRW arms from ECS (M logo gets machined off :sad. So far, I've had no issues. They improved the feel of the steering a good deal, and made the car feel less squishy and squirrelly with the front suspension loaded, but they didn't really change the ride comfort much (a little worse over bridge joints).

[Tommm]

So, adding 1.5 of negative is not going too far for the street? Remember this is my daily driver. I am concerned with tire wear, not feedback. I am used to additional feedback. I had RX-7s, and 944s as daily drivers since the 80s. The 128i is me getting softer aka tired of rolling in and out every day. That's what weekends with the M Roadster (for sale) and Cayman S (replaced M) are for.

Followed up on what is for sale, and there are multiple brands for the stock wishbones, only TRW for M3 wishbones. rmeuropean is $315 for the four pieces. One piece is out of stock. May have to split the order.

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by Tommm

So, adding 1.5 of negative is not going too far for the street? Remember this is my daily driver. I am concerned with tire wear, not feedback. I am used to additional feedback. I had RX-7s, and 944s as daily drivers since the 80s. The 128i is me getting softer aka tired of rolling in and out every day. That's what weekends with the M Roadster (for sale) and Cayman S (replaced M) are for.

Followed up on what is for sale, and there are multiple brands for the stock wishbones, only TRW for M3 wishbones. rmeuropean is $315 for the four pieces. One piece is out of stock. May have to split the order.

I have seen several people here running -2.0 up to -2.5 degrees of camber on street cars. As far as i understood, as long as you at least see the track twice a year even those camber numbers are acceptable in terms of wear.

I am not speaking from experience, only to what i have seen some people run and i was planning when doing a suspension upgrade to hit -2.0 as well, street car with some fun track runs.

[Tommm]

Originally Posted by Zombie_Head

I have seen several people here running -2.0 up to -2.5 degrees of camber on street cars. As far as i understood, as long as you at least see the track twice a year even those camber numbers are acceptable in terms of wear.

I am not speaking from experience, only to what i have seen some people run and i was planning when doing a suspension upgrade to hit -2.0 as well, street car with some fun track runs.

What are we starting at? Arms and plates add -1.5.

[MightyMouseTech]

My daily driver is -2.2. Wish it had more. I have a track car for track stuff. On the pro BMW race team, we would run between -4 and -5 depending on the track.

Didn't we already discuss this?

[MightyMouseTech]

Originally Posted by Tommm

So, adding 1.5 of negative is not going too far for the street? Remember this is my daily driver. I am concerned with tire wear, not feedback. I am used to additional feedback. I had RX-7s, and 944s as daily drivers since the 80s. The 128i is me getting softer aka tired of rolling in and out every day. That's what weekends with the M Roadster (for sale) and Cayman S (replaced M) are for.

Followed up on what is for sale, and there are multiple brands for the stock wishbones, only TRW for M3 wishbones. rmeuropean is $315 for the four pieces. One piece is out of stock. May have to split the order.

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-trw-part...1102283577mkt/

[Tommm]

Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech

Didn't we already discuss this?

Probably. But I forgot what I ate last night, and I almost forget when to pick up the kid.

OK. I am not going too negative with both. I cant remember what I had on the E36 M3 that was driving to the DE, the DE and back with an occasional run to Sonic or DQ with the kid giggling as I yank the wheel a little and she gets tossed around the back seat (in her seatbelt of course).

Dont have xenon. dont need the adjuster. Only options from the factory are silver paint and butt warmers. However, my stripper 30k msrp 08 128i has steering wheel controls while my 65k msrp 07 Cayman S doesn't.

[low135]

Toe is what you need to be mindful of. My last car had -3.5 front and -4.5 rear but zeroed out toe and had zero wear issues. The only reason people think camber kills tires is usually due to the misalligned toe that goes along with it.

[Zombie_Head]

Originally Posted by low135

Toe is what you need to be mindful of. My last car had -3.5 front and -4.5 rear but zeroed out toe and had zero wear issues. The only reason people think camber kills tires is usually due to the misalligned toe that goes along with it.

Originally Posted by Tommm

What are we starting at? Arms and plates add -1.5.

If i recall, a lot of those owner use OEM shock mounts with the alignment pin removed.

I will dig up some old threads if i can find them and link them but yes M3 front kit was used (arms and tie rod ends i believe).

And yes, 0 toe front and rear was also used with -2.0 and greater camber.

[Tommm]

I found this email from back in 2010 when I had my 1995 E36 M3 with PSS9s. There were the alignment specs recommended by a friend of a friend, and the car was sweet on the track. Too aggressive for the street if I am concerned with tire wear? Can I get these numbers with just the dinan fixed plates and Konis Sports or do I need the M3 control arms?

Tom's M3 alignment

The KMAC plates probably won't have much ability to adjust caster
separately from camber - i.e. at full caster you can't get full
camber, and at full camber you can't get full caster. Compromise as
best you can.

Stock toe in the rear. That's pretty standard with stock rear trailing
arm bushings (which are a good thing, in my opinion). Zero toe in the
front. Go in or out from there to get the turn-in response nailed
down. You can do some the same thing with the rear, but it will cost
some stability under braking.

> -2.7-2.9 front camber
>
> -2.3-2.5 rear camber

Not enough front camber ;-) It'll be fine, but an E36 M3 can always
use more front camber. That's probably more rear camber than he really
needs, but it will probably fall in that range anyway without
aftermarket arms to increase the adjustment range.

[Tuxedo]

I could use a bit of help in this line of advise/questions, just did Koni STR.T front&rear and TRW 3M control arms front. Alignment complete and has a pull to the right- car rides, handles and drives great just pulls right.

[BimmerAg]

Originally Posted by Tommm

I found this email from back in 2010 when I had my 1995 E36 M3 with PSS9s. There were the alignment specs recommended by a friend of a friend, and the car was sweet on the track. Too aggressive for the street if I am concerned with tire wear? Can I get these numbers with just the dinan fixed plates and Konis Sports or do I need the M3 control arms?

I think you can only get to around -1.5° in the front with the dinan plates, and I think the rear is limited to around -2° with the stock adjusters. I don't think -1.5-2 is too aggressive for the street, toe is what really wears tires a lot more than camber.

Originally Posted by Tuxedo

I could use a bit of help in this line of advise/questions, just did Koni STR.T front&rear and TRW 3M control arms front. Alignment complete and has a pull to the right- car rides, handles and drives great just pulls right.

Do you have a spec sheet from your alignment? Pull to the right could be from the front toe settings, or from more camber on the left than on the right. It could also be that your alignment is dialed in perfectly, but the road crown is causing a pull to the right.

[chris_flies]

Originally Posted by Tommm

I found this email from back in 2010 when I had my 1995 E36 M3 with PSS9s. There were the alignment specs recommended by a friend of a friend, and the car was sweet on the track. Too aggressive for the street if I am concerned with tire wear? Can I get these numbers with just the dinan fixed plates and Konis Sports or do I need the M3 control arms?

If I recall correctly, I calculated my front camber to be around -2.2-2.4 degrees. That's with Dinan plates and M arms, and obviously, no alignment pin.

To get those numbers you quoted, you'd likely be looking at offset control arm bushings and racing plates.

I'd say the Dinan plates and M arms are as much as you'd want to run for a mainly street car. I don't have any wear issues, so far...

Eventually, I'd go for some adjustable plates so that I can have crazy amounts for track driving, and then adjust back to sane amounts for street driving.

[Tuxedo]

Originally Posted by BimmerAg

Do you have a spec sheet from your alignment? Pull to the right could be from the front toe settings, or from more camber on the left than on the right. It could also be that your alignment is dialed in perfectly, but the road crown is causing a pull to the right.

I've had it in twice I have 3 receipts and none have the stats, I went to a Firestone dealer I can walk to and from my home- not ideal but location, location location. I work for a Mazda dealer and my tech is strong on Mazda alignment and secondary good with German cars but not sure what direction to resolve it. if this is common and have the degrees or point of adjustment it would help. He's not looked at it yet.

[Muppet]

Castor is usually a bit different from one side to the other to allow for the camber in the road. Stops pulling to one side. I have .4 degree difference between one side and the other.

[ShocknAwe]

You'll max out at -2.2 with M3 wishbones and dinan plates. Can tell you for sure you'll want both, at least. Had dinan plates on, took them off to try adjustable plates at ~-3, ended up taking those off and neglected to put the dinan plates back on, at -1.5 now and biding time to reinstall so I don't waste money on another alignment.

Lesson? Don't forget to install camber plates.

[Tommm]

Originally Posted by BimmerAg

I think you can only get to around -1.5° in the front with the dinan plates, and I think the rear is limited to around -2° with the stock adjusters. I don't think -1.5-2 is too aggressive for the street, toe is what really wears tires a lot more than camber.

Originally Posted by chris_flies

If I recall correctly, I calculated my front camber to be around -2.2-2.4 degrees. That's with Dinan plates and M arms, and obviously, no alignment pin.

To get those numbers you quoted, you'd likely be looking at offset control arm bushings and racing plates.

I'd say the Dinan plates and M arms are as much as you'd want to run for a mainly street car. I don't have any wear issues, so far...

Eventually, I'd go for some adjustable plates so that I can have crazy amounts for track driving, and then adjust back to sane amounts for street driving.

Originally Posted by ShocknAwe

You'll max out at -2.2 with M3 wishbones and dinan plates. Can tell you for sure you'll want both, at least. Had dinan plates on, took them off to try adjustable plates at ~-3, ended up taking those off and neglected to put the dinan plates back on, at -1.5 now and biding time to reinstall so I don't waste money on another alignment.

Lesson? Don't forget to install camber plates.

Thanks all. Thanks for solid numbers.

Had a screw in a front tire today. Took it to Discount, and while it was on the "lift" with the wheel off we shook the rotor. Saw flex in the bushing. 60k miles, time for control arms. Now I dont feel bad about spending the money. Because of my depression era dad, I have a hard time replacing good parts, and i dont feel like dropping $ on two alignments. No new R Comps for me this year.

Got the TRW arms from FCP Euro. $303 for the four shipped. Bought the nuts and bolts too. After we do the cooling system on my daughters 323Ci I will do the suspension of the 128i.

[BlindedFate]

Daily driving with the M3 LCAs and the Vorshlag plates. Currently running -3 up front -2.5 in the back. Have taken it to one HPDE, but I plan on doing more after final exams are over. Completely changed the car and I don't think I can go back, super responsive now. If you run a square set up you can rotate your tires more often to balance out the wear.

[BlindedFate]

Originally Posted by chris_flies

If I recall correctly, I calculated my front camber to be around -2.2-2.4 degrees. That's with Dinan plates and M arms, and obviously, no alignment pin.

To get those numbers you quoted, you'd likely be looking at offset control arm bushings and racing plates.

I'd say the Dinan plates and M arms are as much as you'd want to run for a mainly street car. I don't have any wear issues, so far...

Eventually, I'd go for some adjustable plates so that I can have crazy amounts for track driving, and then adjust back to sane amounts for street driving.

Only issue with this is it changes with toe. I thought of doing the same, but I just decided the added wear from toe was not worth it. Camber wear is easier to manage