The M3 is a German muscle car

Quasimoto · 12-31-2018, 09:17 AM

Change my mind!

I know, in reality, it's so much more than a straight-line bruiser (especially on a track), but my buddy's comment to me after taking a ride really did distill the street/DD performance.

I never viewed the M3 that way - but I think he's right!

It's an incredibly capable muscle car that has all-world handling.

Quasimoto · 12-31-2018, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pheerIx

Muscle car needs at least 8 cylinders. Change my mind.

Truth!

Counterpoint - the 444 HP available in the Competition Pack gets the M3 awfully close to some prime American "muscle car" samples such as the Mustang GT (460), Camaro SS (455), etc.

Pharaoh2716 · 12-31-2018, 11:26 AM

C63s is more of a German "muscle" car than M3/4.

JibSTir13 · 12-31-2018, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharaoh2716

C63s is more of a German "muscle" car than M3/4.

Agreed.

Poiseuille · 12-31-2018, 11:34 AM

Muscle Car: leaf spring-solid axle-open diff (usually)-9 cubic yard rockerbox V8.....oh, wait, did I mention the brakes? bwahahahaha...

F8X: not a Muscle Car

Audio Fan · 12-31-2018, 01:39 PM

It's bipolar, with one side definitely being a muscle car IMHO. It's got hooligan power, straight line speed, can burn rubber at will, ZCP exhaust is loud and fun/annoying (depending on perspective), and looks aggressive. The other side side adds great handling, reasonable comfort, great technology, build quality, luxury, sophistication, etc.

I grew up with and loving muscle cars. The first time I drove an M4 and felt the torque, I was like "Oh Yeah, this is going to be (maybe) too much fun." My M3 were great, but never had the low-end grunt to make every start and drive grin-worthy. I felt like that teenager with a mustang GT. From the grin on my face, you'd have that it was prom night. Muscle Car.

SD ///M4 · 12-31-2018, 02:28 PM

As I was in high school and lived in Detroit during the original Detroit "muscle car" era and had lots of friends with muscle cars, here's some perspective.

"Muscle cars" were usually a brand's base model but with the largest/most powerful engine available. For example:

Pontiac GTO = base Tempest with a 389 cubic inch engine (and 3 2-barrel carbs)
Chevy SS 396 = base Chevelle with a 396 cubic inch engine (and a huge 4-barrel)
Plymouth Road Runner = base Belvedere with a 383 cubic inch engine (also with a big 4-barrel)

These are just 3 of the best 60's muscle cars but probably the 3 best known as "sleepers". Some of these came with vinyl bench seats, and didn't even have power windows.

A BMW could hardly be described as the same kind of base model, but the M3/M4 is the same as a base 3 Series/4 Series with the largest/most powerful engine available, but also with a lot more luxury amenities standard. Using this as a standard, a M3/M4 is a muscle car...kind of. But unlike the original muscle cars, the M3/M4 can also handle, and stop.

captainaudio · 12-31-2018, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poiseuille

Muscle Car: leaf spring-solid axle-open diff (usually)-9 cubic yard rockerbox V8.....oh, wait, did I mention the brakes? bwahahahaha...

F8X: not a Muscle Car

My first new car was a 1969 Firebird 400. It was fairly heavily optioned and had heavy duty clutch and suspension. It had leaf springs and a solid axle but it also had a limited slip differential (GM "Positraction") and front disc brakes.
Certainly did not have the technology of my 2018 M4 Competion Pack but that was 50 years ago. I would surmise that although my 2018 M4 is a better car than my Firebird 400 of 50 years ago it is not as much better than my 1969 Firebird than my 1969 Firebird was than any car that was 50 years old (that would be MY 1919) when I bought it.

A4W · 01-01-2019, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pharaoh2716

C63s is more of a German "muscle" car than M3/4.

I agree because AMG is all about straight speed blasting off the line and making a lot of throaty aggressive noises. Not that that is a bad thing: I love AMGs for what they are as much as I love Ms.

MrBreezenovel · 01-10-2019, 06:05 AM

I say that about my AMG GTS, I do not think the M3 would fit that statement. I was around in the 60's and 70's when they made the muscle cars, I worked on a lot them.

dereklife34 · 01-10-2019, 06:10 AM

M3 eternal classics of the German car industry bmw!

nicknaz · 01-10-2019, 10:10 AM

Oh gosh, this is going to be like the "what's a sports car" debate.

Definitions are getting tough since old stereotypes don't really hold true anymore. Camaro and Mustang and Corvette can handle with the Germans, and M3 and c63 can drag race with the Americans.

shortseller · 01-10-2019, 10:18 AM

Yes...

But the Z4 & M2 gets us somewhat back to carving corners!

Poiseuille · 01-10-2019, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poiseuille

Muscle Car: leaf spring-solid axle-open diff (usually)-9 cubic yard rockerbox V8.....oh, wait, did I mention the brakes? bwahahahaha...

F8X: not a Muscle Car

an addition to the original comment:

".....9 cubic yard rockerbox V8, cast iron block&heads, four-barrel Holly the size of a canoe...."

Tall Tom Cruise · 01-10-2019, 12:07 PM

IDK about that one, chief.

Poiseuille · 01-10-2019, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Railgun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poiseuille

Muscle Car: leaf spring-solid axle-open diff (usually)-9 cubic yard rockerbox V8.....oh, wait, did I mention the brakes? bwahahahaha...

F8X: not a Muscle Car

Quote:

Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:

A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on “regular” production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

From:

https://musclecarclub.com/muscle-car-definition/

That said, a Hellcat and the like fall into that definition. In every way but the V8 does an F8x fall into the definition...so...by that definition, just short.

You may be onto something bringing up a possible definition issue. for me, the expression "muscle car" refers to something built in Detroit from the late 60s through the late 70s. those cars have approximately zero to do with a Hellcat.

summilux · 01-10-2019, 01:25 PM

When I think muscle car I think high beltline, small windows and V8. F8x doesn't make the cut.

dezzracer · 01-11-2019, 01:40 AM

Pro body builder has way different skills and appearance than an Olympic runner. Both are the best at what they do though. With that said, I would consider my (non 60’s) 04 Mustang Cobra “Terminator” a muscle car. Supercharged 32 valve 4 cam V-8 putting down 480 hp and 450 Trq to the wheels on a dyno feeding a Tremec T-56 6 speed and a 9 inch rear end. No electronic nannies except ABS and a crude traction control. Scares the shit out of me every time I hammer it unless I’m going in a straight line.

allinon72 · 01-11-2019, 05:56 AM

Labels are meaningless.

SD ///M4 · 01-11-2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by allinon72

Labels are meaningless.

Think about that the next time you walk into any retail store...

nicknaz · 01-16-2019, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shortseller

Yes...

But the Z4 & M2 gets us somewhat back to carving corners!

Are you referring to the new z4?

My e89 z435 was the definition of a poser car, unfortunately. Hindsight being 20/20 but I should have gotten a CPO e86 z4m coupe instead, or a vette or boxster. I almost quit BMW because of that car and f30 335 with "m sport" suspension.

Labels aside my f80 was my favorite bmw hands down. laying down rubber in 1st and second without even trying never got old

allinon72 · 01-17-2019, 04:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD ///M4

Think about that the next time you walk into any retail store...

The term has multiple meanings.

12-31-2018, 09:17 AM	#1
Quasimoto New Member 12 Rep 24 Posts Drives: 2018 BMW M3 Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: PDX, OR iTrader: (0)	The M3 is a German muscle car Change my mind! I know, in reality, it's so much more than a straight-line bruiser (especially on a track), but my buddy's comment to me after taking a ride really did distill the street/DD performance. I never viewed the M3 that way - but I think he's right! It's an incredibly capable muscle car that has all-world handling.
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12-31-2018, 11:26 AM	#3
Pharaoh2716 Private First Class 91 Rep 180 Posts Drives: 2015 BMW M4 Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Bay Area, California iTrader: (0)	C63s is more of a German "muscle" car than M3/4.
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12-31-2018, 11:34 AM	#5
Poiseuille Brigadier General 5393 Rep 3,737 Posts Drives: 2016 M4 DCT Tanzanite/Amaro Join Date: Oct 2016 Location: Princeton iTrader: (0) Garage List [0.00] [10.00]	Muscle Car: leaf spring-solid axle-open diff (usually)-9 cubic yard rockerbox V8.....oh, wait, did I mention the brakes? bwahahahaha... F8X: not a Muscle Car
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12-31-2018, 01:39 PM	#6
Audio Fan Major 778 Rep 1,058 Posts Drives: AY - M4 Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: NC iTrader: (0)	It's bipolar, with one side definitely being a muscle car IMHO. It's got hooligan power, straight line speed, can burn rubber at will, ZCP exhaust is loud and fun/annoying (depending on perspective), and looks aggressive. The other side side adds great handling, reasonable comfort, great technology, build quality, luxury, sophistication, etc. I grew up with and loving muscle cars. The first time I drove an M4 and felt the torque, I was like "Oh Yeah, this is going to be (maybe) too much fun." My M3 were great, but never had the low-end grunt to make every start and drive grin-worthy. I felt like that teenager with a mustang GT. From the grin on my face, you'd have that it was prom night. Muscle Car.
	Appreciate 2 Quasimoto11.50 KakashiSenpai461.00 Quote

12-31-2018, 02:28 PM	#7
SD ///M4 ///Multiple 2992 Rep 4,243 Posts Drives: M4 Coupe \| M3 \| Z4M Roadster Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: San Diego, CA iTrader: (1) Garage List 2006 BMW Z4 M Roadster [8.81] 2016 BMW M4 Coupe ( ... [10.00] 2018 BMW M3 (Euro D ... [0.00] 2011 BMW 335is Coup ... [10.00]	As I was in high school and lived in Detroit during the original Detroit "muscle car" era and had lots of friends with muscle cars, here's some perspective. "Muscle cars" were usually a brand's base model but with the largest/most powerful engine available. For example: Pontiac GTO = base Tempest with a 389 cubic inch engine (and 3 2-barrel carbs) Chevy SS 396 = base Chevelle with a 396 cubic inch engine (and a huge 4-barrel) Plymouth Road Runner = base Belvedere with a 383 cubic inch engine (also with a big 4-barrel) These are just 3 of the best 60's muscle cars but probably the 3 best known as "sleepers". Some of these came with vinyl bench seats, and didn't even have power windows. A BMW could hardly be described as the same kind of base model, but the M3/M4 is the same as a base 3 Series/4 Series with the largest/most powerful engine available, but also with a lot more luxury amenities standard. Using this as a standard, a M3/M4 is a muscle car...kind of. But unlike the original muscle cars, the M3/M4 can also handle, and stop. __________________ The Coupe: 2016 M4 \| Sakhir Orange \| Black Full Merino Leather \| CF Trim \| M-DCT \| More \| ED 5/13/16 The Sedan: 2018 M3 \| San Marino Blue \| Black Full Merino Leather \| CF Trim \| M-DCT \| ZCP \| ED 7/18/18 The Roadster: 2006 Z4 \| Interlagos Blue \| Black Extended Nappa Leather \| Carbon Leather Trim \| Purchased 7/19/12
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01-10-2019, 06:05 AM	#10
MrBreezenovel Private 26 Rep 89 Posts Drives: M4 Calf T 911, GTS, RR S Class Join Date: Feb 2015 Location: PA iTrader: (0)	I say that about my AMG GTS, I do not think the M3 would fit that statement. I was around in the 60's and 70's when they made the muscle cars, I worked on a lot them.
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01-10-2019, 06:10 AM	#11
dereklife34 New Member 3 Rep 6 Posts Drives: bmw m4 Join Date: Jan 2019 Location: dc wash iTrader: (0)	M3 eternal classics of the German car industry bmw!
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01-10-2019, 10:10 AM	#12
nicknaz Lieutenant General 3187 Rep 10,509 Posts Drives: C6Z Join Date: May 2008 Location: NorCal iTrader: (0)	Oh gosh, this is going to be like the "what's a sports car" debate. Definitions are getting tough since old stereotypes don't really hold true anymore. Camaro and Mustang and Corvette can handle with the Germans, and M3 and c63 can drag race with the Americans.
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01-10-2019, 10:18 AM	#13
shortseller Brigadier General 1003 Rep 3,396 Posts Drives: ‘18 ABM F80ZCP/dct Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: NOVA iTrader: (0)	Yes... But the Z4 & M2 gets us somewhat back to carving corners! __________________
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01-10-2019, 12:07 PM	#15
Tall Tom Cruise Lieutenant 1002 Rep 569 Posts Drives: '21 G80 M3 Join Date: Apr 2018 Location: Orange County, CA iTrader: (1)	IDK about that one, chief.
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01-10-2019, 01:25 PM	#17
summilux Second Lieutenant 162 Rep 231 Posts Drives: F80 MG & 6MT Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Ottawa iTrader: (0)	When I think muscle car I think high beltline, small windows and V8. F8x doesn't make the cut.
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01-11-2019, 01:40 AM	#18
dezzracer Major 1183 Rep 1,220 Posts Drives: 2018 M3 CS Join Date: Dec 2018 Location: The Great Mojave Desert iTrader: (0)	Pro body builder has way different skills and appearance than an Olympic runner. Both are the best at what they do though. With that said, I would consider my (non 60’s) 04 Mustang Cobra “Terminator” a muscle car. Supercharged 32 valve 4 cam V-8 putting down 480 hp and 450 Trq to the wheels on a dyno feeding a Tremec T-56 6 speed and a 9 inch rear end. No electronic nannies except ABS and a crude traction control. Scares the shit out of me every time I hammer it unless I’m going in a straight line.
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01-11-2019, 05:56 AM	#19
allinon72 Brigadier General 4924 Rep 3,806 Posts Drives: 20' M2C, 23' X1 Join Date: May 2017 Location: Indianapolis, IN iTrader: (2)	Labels are meaningless.
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