Recaro Pole Positions vs Euro GTS Pole Positions (FIA vs ABE)

[Day Laborer]

I've been toying with the idea for reupholstering Recaro Pole positions to match the Euro GTS seats for some time and have reached out to a few providers to get prices. They came back roughly around $4500-5000 for non-carbon backs & $5500-6000 with carbon backs.

Ultimately I wanted it to be reupholstered with merino leather, carbon fiber shell, Alcantara inserts, white stitching, and recaro metal emblems, M strip stitching, along with OEM rails and pull handles in order to match the OEM as close as possible. **edit - also discovered that reupholstering Recaro seats would require a different set of seat inserts, which are in a different shape than what it comes with.

From my research I have discovered fundamentally important differences between the two thought I'd share (given the lack of information available).

The OEM Euro GTS seats are based off the Recaro Pole Positions, but its a specific version called:

• Pole Positions (ABE) <glass fiber reinforced plastic> 15.43 lbs,
• Even more specifically Pole Position Racing (ABE) <Carbon-Kevlar® composite> 9.92lbs.
  

To be simple, we will just refer to these as Pole Position FIA and Pole Position ABE

Pole Position FIA

• Regular Pole Positions are FIA certified, but NOT legal for road use, specifically I assume because the seat belt restraints do not pass through the sides as you can see in the example below:
  
• I assume, in an accident, the slack caused having the seat belt wrap above the seat bolsters may have a devastating impact, as the seat belts would not function as designed, inside the seat <safety issue> (correct me if I'm wrong). In my opinion, it would only be truly safe to drive around town with the harnesses worn at all times.
• This FIA version also would have an expiration date (FIA homologation) valid for only 5 years.

Pole Position ABE

• Are TUV certified for street/road use (not DOT) but, still crash tested, quality checked, etc (Recaro's road-going version of the FIA)
• Provides wider room in the hips for ergonomics, and comfort,as shown here:
  
• Most importantly, the ABE versions allow for seat belt restraint/receivers to pass through a larger hole & has a separator between the 3 point seat belt and the harness lap belts, allowing the retracting restraints to deploy properly on the occupants hips.
  
• From my understanding, the TUV certification would outlast the FIA 5 year expiration for the life of the car
• Pole Position ABEs are not sold anywhere in the US (I tried looking) and are most likely have to be special ordered/imported
  
  

In conclusion, I can now start to see the justification of the outrageous costs of these seats, which similar to Porsche's GT3 carbon buckets

In the end, I bit the bullet and purchased the real deal, though my wallet is now empty, at least my safety won't be (as) compromised using regular seat belts

I do have one question for a US spec car using bucket seats w/o seat airbags; can someone explain to me in ELI5 details, the consequences of a two stage steering wheel airbag deploying, vs the European single stage airbag ? Its been previously told that equipping these bucket seats would entail that I should switch over to a single stage airbag as well? Any insights on this?

[FormulaMMM]

Interesting stuff, good insights.

I'll be installing a standard Profi XL w/ VAC Motorsports factory seat belt adapters. Be interested to see how the 3 pt seems to function.

Look forward to seeing your proper Euro setup done. No doubt bucket & harness is how this car is best enjoyed on track.

[Day Laborer]

Here they are installed; the US M4GTS seats went into the M2

[FormulaMMM]

Awesome! Install was manageable? Immediate sense of better connection to the car?

[Rguy]

I could justify 5 or 6k for a close to OEM spec...id kill for a true OEM set but cant swing that price.

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Awesome! Install was manageable? Immediate sense of better connection to the car?

Game changer.. increases driver confidence and better connection to what the car is doing

Install was easy.. 4 bolts and unplug the wires assembly

[SunnyD]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

Game changer.. increases driver confidence and better connection to what the car is doing

Install was easy.. 4 bolts and unplug the wires assembly

Did you have to code the car afterwards?

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by SunnyD

Did you have to code the car afterwards?

Alex from Alpine MSS coded it for me. Easy process by remote access into a Windows laptop.

[em4ef82]

Great write up thank you. I was about to try the alternative route to fake the euro seats but not sure if it's worth it after seeing your review.

Couple questions: You mentioned about wiring, didn't know Euro seats come with wiring that plugs into existing wiring harness. Can you please elaborate more on that?
Also you seemed to go with 3 point setup rather than 5 point harness which can be done in Euro spec car. Any idea if that is too much work or not possible doing it on US spec car? Wondering if anyone went through the full harness setup and have the cost details and installation info. If I am going to spend that much money on these seats I will have to have the option to use full on race harness and really enjoy the added benefit of bucket seats. If not I guess I am going to continue using duct tape- another way to pin yourself to the seat LOL

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by em4ef82

Great write up thank you. I was about to try the alternative route to fake the euro seats but not sure if it's worth it after seeing your review.

Couple questions: You mentioned about wiring, didn't know Euro seats come with wiring that plugs into existing wiring harness. Can you please elaborate more on that?
Also you seemed to go with 3 point setup rather than 5 point harness which can be done in Euro spec car. Any idea if that is too much work or not possible doing it on US spec car? Wondering if anyone went through the full harness setup and have the cost details and installation info. If I am going to spend that much money on these seats I will have to have the option to use full on race harness and really enjoy the added benefit of bucket seats. If not I guess I am going to continue using duct tape- another way to pin yourself to the seat LOL

The wiring on the GTS Euro seats route to the OEM seat belt receivers, which actually pull down during impact.

The harnesses, I actually have the OEM Schroth Harnesses, I am waiting on more parts before I can use them and will be welding the bracket mounts into the body. The US GTS did not come with mounting points welded into the body. You can reference the part numbers here:
https://www.realoem.com/bmw/enUS/sho...diagId=41_2602

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by em4ef82

but not sure if it's worth it after seeing your review.

By the way there are means to obtain all these OEM parts separately at a lower price, you just have to find various sources.
Some vendors sell part numbers lower than others, or you can go directly to the manufacturer for a lower price (i.e. M4 GTS Schroth Harnesses from HMS motorsports) Another example, I was able to source the OEM bracket mounts from schmiedmann.com at a much lower price than the RKP version

Alternatively, you can also find upholstery shops in Europe that can source the ABE versions as well; just be willing to pay overseas and ship internationally.

PM me if you want a list of sources where I've found stuff individually instead of buying the whole package

[redrumm3]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

Alex from Alpine MSS coded it for me. Easy process by remote access into a Windows laptop.

+1 for Alex.

[em4ef82]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

By the way there are means to obtain all these OEM parts separately at a lower price, you just have to find various sources.
Some vendors sell part numbers lower than others, or you can go directly to the manufacturer for a lower price (i.e. M4 GTS Schroth Harnesses from HMS motorsports) Another example, I was able to source the OEM bracket mounts from schmiedmann.com at a much lower price than the RKP version

Alternatively, you can also find upholstery shops in Europe that can source the ABE versions as well; just be willing to pay overseas and ship internationally.

PM me if you want a list of sources where I've found stuff individually instead of buying the whole package

Appreciate all the info, thanks again.

[Sedan_Clan]

Originally Posted by Day Laborer

Here they are installed; the US M4GTS seats went into the M2

The seats look good.

[FormulaMMM]

Looking at my profi xl pre-install -- I think there's enough space for the receptacle to pass through properly, like the Euro GTS seats. There's no divider, but the pass through is positioned differently than in the standard pole position. Here's an example installed in a Porsche.



You can see the different size and positioning of the pass through. Looks like it will work much the same as the factory GTS seats, we'll see...

[robbo mcs]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Looking at my profi xl pre-install -- I think there's enough space for the receptacle to pass through properly, like the Euro GTS seats. There's no divider, but the pass through is positioned differently than in the standard pole position. Here's an example installed in a Porsche.



You can see the different size and positioning of the pass through. Looks like it will work much the same as the factory GTS seats, we'll see...

It is not just where it sits. It is what happens when the pyrotechnic pretensioner fires that is really important. That will retract it vertically, tightening the lap component and stabilising your pelvis. It would be worthwhile trying to find one that has fired from a wreck, and see how that lines up in comparison.

[FormulaMMM]

Originally Posted by robbo mcs

It is not just where it sits. It is what happens when the pyrotechnic pretensioner fires that is really important. That will retract it vertically, tightening the lap component and stabilising your pelvis. It would be worthwhile trying to find one that has fired from a wreck, and see how that lines up in comparison.

Do you see something in the design of either the Profi XL or Euro GTS seat, or both that would prevent the function you're describing?

I'm piecing together the Profi and so far looks like I'll be able to maintain stock 3 pt "geometry." I'll run the receptacle up to the pass through at virtually the same angle as stock. tbd is how the 3 pt will pass over my left shoulder.

I'm doing this to run a 6 pt anyways, but I'd like to know any flaws I'm missing in the 3 pt system.

[Day Laborer]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Do you see something in the design of either the Profi XL or Euro GTS seat, or both that would prevent the function you're describing?

I'm piecing together the Profi and so far looks like I'll be able to maintain stock 3 pt "geometry." I'll run the receptacle up to the pass through at virtually the same angle as stock. tbd is how the 3 pt will pass over my left shoulder.

I'm doing this to run a 6 pt anyways, but I'd like to know any flaws I'm missing in the 3 pt system.

PMd you

[robbo mcs]

Originally Posted by FormulaMMM

Do you see something in the design of either the Profi XL or Euro GTS seat, or both that would prevent the function you're describing?

I'm piecing together the Profi and so far looks like I'll be able to maintain stock 3 pt "geometry." I'll run the receptacle up to the pass through at virtually the same angle as stock. tbd is how the 3 pt will pass over my left shoulder.

I'm doing this to run a 6 pt anyways, but I'd like to know any flaws I'm missing in the 3 pt system.

No, I don’t see anything obvious. When the pretensioner fires it pulls the seatbelt receptable vertically downwards. The main thing is that there has to be enough room and clearance for this to work. It would be a potential problem if the hole was small and it could snag as it was pulled backdown, or if the hole in the seat forced the receptable into a bent or horizontal type position.

When you install the seat you just want to be aware of this and see how things line up, at the same time making sure the geometry for the 6 point installation is within manufacturers specs as well

[M 4 FUN]

I will also put in my Euro spec GTS seats soon. I bought a bunch of GTS-stuff with my M4 comp pack. Seats with brackets, harnesses, Cage, front splitter, fire extuinguisher, side pods for the Cage and some other small stuff.

I choose to use an aftermarket subframe where i will have Electric adjustment back and forth of the seat. The rest of my parts will be sold.

[FormulaMMM]

Going through this with a mix of components makes you appreciate the factory/Euro solution.

[Day Laborer]

I am getting a lot of feedback and lots of questions regarding this subject via PMs; keep them coming- I'm more than happy to help.
Just to summarize the differences I found so far broken down by topic:

1. ABE vs FIA

• ABE allows for 3 point seatbelt FIA does not
• ABE has a taller shoulder pass through holes location vs FIA
• ABE is wider in the hips
• ABE can only be sourced from Europe, or a US company who can source them from Europe (will not come from Recaro USA)

2. Replica/reuphostery
I have identified 3 upholstery sources in Europe who can source ABE & reupholster good quality (would save on shipping between Recaro source & shipping to customer)

• Poland - https://www.instagram.com/amx_performance/
• United Kingdom- https://www.instagram.com/lawrence_lgt/
• Berlin - https://www.instagram.com/carmeb_autobekleding/

All of the above providers have resulted happy customers from what I've seen
Also here is a list that you must be specific about when reupholstering because I haven't seen them 100% replicate it from other attempts:

• ABE seats not FIA
• Merino Leather
• White Stitching
• Recaro emblem on the inboard side, right above the shoulder wings
• Carbon Fiber Shell or Carbon Fiber skinning (laminating)
• M Stripes sewn into the alcantara, not overlaid & correct positioning
• Or you can opt to buy the seat inserts OEM which is a different shape than the inserts that the non-OEM comes with

Note: the OEM seat rails & seat adapters cost nearly $3700+ new, you can opt to use the generic Recaro seat adapters and rails, but will be stuck with the generic adjustment bar instead of the OEM seat lever and the it might sit a bit higher than the OEM rails because of the "generic seat rails mount adapters"

3. Sources to obtain seperate OEM parts by part number

• schmeidmann.com (Harness brackets & OEM seat inserts with M stripes)
• HMSmotorsport.com (GTS specific harness) Enduro
• ind-distribution.com (full package)
• turnermotorsports.com (seats and adapters only)

4. Other notes:

• Coding must be done to remove the driver/passenger airbag warnings (I used Alex @ Alpine MSS)
• You must transfer over your seatbelt receiver over to the seats and will require you to plug back in the wiring harness