Steve Dinan & M Coupe/Roadster

[03BeastCharmer]

Steve is touring around some of the larger dealerships, and had a get together last night at one of the Houston Dian dealerships. He talked a lot about where BMW engines were going (smaller displcement & turbos), and about the stroker kits for the M5, M6 & M3

I asked him about the M Coupe/Roadster, and while he loves the car, they are not working on any parts for it. He had a Roadster that they did a lot of prototypes for it, but nothing went into production (except the springs). He actually made a produciton run of 50 springs, and needed to sale them. The problem with the springs he said are that they need to be matched with upgraded shocks and bars, and no one is making shocks for the car, so it's not a perfect setup. He also said the car is majorly under dampened, and could really benefit from a good shock and spring (and bar) setup, and there just isn't anything out there.
From a Hp standpoint he talked about "intake scoops", and they tested them, and said that they actually dropped Hp. He said they put sensors throughout the intake path, and while driving on the road vs on a dyno, the speed of the air actually decreased with the scoops. On the dyno (M5) they lost 2 Hp. Headers - He said the stock headers for the M Coupe are very good, the restrictive parts are the cats. His recommendation was to take out the 2nd set of cats but leave in the stock headers and primary cats. This way there aren't any issues with the O2 sensors, or fault readiness status. There is more Hp to be gained by messing with the front cats, but it's just not worth the hassle. He also said to remove teh charcoil filter from the air box to free up a few more Hp. He also mentioned that the new DME was more efficient than the one in the E46 M3, so it actually makes a little more power. He also highly recommended diff changes on all M cars, and pulling the alignment pins and getting the most front camber you can get, then fix the toe with an alignment.

So, before I go cutting the rear cats out of my car, what do ya'll think about the points Steve made?

[Burt Reynolds]

My thoughts are-

1. The differential upgrade is the one mod most people agree on.

2. Earl did quite a bit of testing exhaust with BMS and I believed they lost power with section 1 removed before software was added.

3. When people do a header/software upgrade they get big HP gains

4. When people do software plus scoop upgrade they get power

5. Interesting points on the suspension.

I am sure Steve knows a hell of a lot more than me but I trust the dyno results I have seen more than anything... If I were going to remove section 1, I would get software.

[MVF4Rrider]

I think those points need to be highly considered. The diff is for sure the best mod out there, as long as you don't mind a bit less fuel economy due to the extra revs. I haven't removed my charcoal filter. Any drawbacks to that?

[MMMazing07]

Originally Posted by MVF4Rrider

I think those points need to be highly considered. The diff is for sure the best mod out there, as long as you don't mind a bit less fuel economy due to the extra revs. I haven't removed my charcoal filter. Any drawbacks to that?

a local dealership freaked out when they found that my charcoal filters were removed. they even threatened to void my engine warranty.

needless to say i go to a different dealership now

[Burt Reynolds]

I keep my charcoal filter handy in my garage with stock filter in case I need to take it in to the dealership. They did not care about he scoop...maybe I have a cool dealership.

Also, with nearly 1k miles on my new 4.10 LSD my mileage is only down .8mpg with mixed city and hwy driving.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

The problem with the springs he said are that they need to be matched with upgraded shocks and bars, and no one is making shocks for the car,

Correction, no one makes shocks for the car he can take exclusive rights to and markup 80%.

[3002 tii]

interesting point about the scoop, and everything else he said makes sense and i'll take his word over any butt dyno reviews from forum members (although i've been plenty guilty of this).

[Burt Reynolds]

Just to clarify my points above- the HP gains / loss I was referring to were from seeing actual before and after dynos not butt dyno.

Here are some well done dyno analysis-(I would trust these results over Steve's gut instinct)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...17#post3460717

[jmillet]

Originally Posted by MMMazing07

a local dealership freaked out when they found that my charcoal filters were removed. they even threatened to void my engine warranty.
needless to say i go to a different dealership now

There's a reason they freaked out; read this:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=z4+air+filter
SIB 12 12 07, Subject: S54 Service Engine Soon Light Illuminated: FC 174 and 175 Fuel System Diagnosis.

[3002 tii]

Originally Posted by Burt Reynolds

Just to clarify my points above- the HP gains / loss I was referring to were from seeing actual before and after dynos not butt dyno.

Here are some well done dyno analysis-(I would trust these results over Steve's gut instinct)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...17#post3460717

wasn't accusing you of that, was making the point that i believe your data which is based on real tests than any butt dyno review from members who purchased other scoops.

[Burt Reynolds]

Did not see it as an accusation but I should offered some proof with my comments as good practice...that was my fault

[03BeastCharmer]

I've got the ESS software so I'll agree that it help enhance any other changes and is needed when you dramatically increase the flow in or out.

On the scoops, Steve said they bought the competitions scoops, as well as made their own, and didn't see any Hp gain using a big ass fan sealed to the front of the car, while on the dyno. Then they also tested it "on road" by putting sensors to measure air speed inside the intake tube and past the MAF, and the speed of the air was lower on back to back runs with and without a scoop. So he's not talking about a hunch, but his R&D process. I'm not going to discount the dyno's that Earl did, or what RPI did, but want to clarify what Steve said they did. He also didn't specifically say the scoop test was on our car, as the question started from someone with a E60 M5, but I have to believe the results would be the same.

[03BeastCharmer]

Originally Posted by jmillet

There's a reason they freaked out; read this:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=z4+air+filter
SIB 12 12 07, Subject: S54 Service Engine Soon Light Illuminated: FC 174 and 175 Fuel System Diagnosis.

Do y'all think that having a tuned DME would prevent the issues that the stock DME had with the charcoal filter being removed?

I didn't ask Steve if he thought you needed a software upgrade in order to be able to take advantage of the filter/cat alterations.

If anyone is in Dallas, he is going to be at one of the dealers (Classis BMW I think), tomorrow (Saturday) so someone may want to ask some follow up questions.

[O-cha]

Originally Posted by jmillet

There's a reason they freaked out; read this:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...=z4+air+filter
SIB 12 12 07, Subject: S54 Service Engine Soon Light Illuminated: FC 174 and 175 Fuel System Diagnosis.

[03BeastCharmer]

Originally Posted by O-cha

Correction, no one makes shocks for the car he can take exclusive rights to and markup 80%.

I think we was very honest in our meeting. Koni has no desire to work on a tuned shock for our car. He said if we really wanted something that we should talk to TC Kline, who might be willing to make a custom set for us.

Since their business model have moved on to different cars, he has nothing to lose by sending me to another vendor (if he knows one is out there).

He also vented about his personal frustration about wheel size, and that the marketing weenies were pushing him to release a 20 in wheel because everyone wants big wheels. He'd like to offer an 18 in wheel so the tire had more sidewall, which would give more grip, but since 18's don't "look as cool" as 20's, very few people buy them, so it wouldn't be profitable to produce them. He also mentioned that BMW developed the E60 M5 on 18s, and when he tested in Spain before it's release it was on 18's, when it came to market it was 19's for look, but the car was developed to handle best on 18s.

He really is a racer and a car guy His stuff is majorly expensive, but you have to respect most of the stuff they do.

[epbrown]

Of course I agree about the diff. The Z4M should have come with the 3.91:1 diff stock from BMW, but I feel that way about aero side skirts and ZCPs/CSLs. Those feelings are why I chose my mods; I wanted the Z4MC BMW could have made using their own parts bin.

Due to that mantra, I diverge from Dinan on headers - we should have got the CSL headers, which are a direct fit and what they got in Europe, and I'd take those over aftermarket. The big exhaust savings aren't in gas flow, they're in weight savings - the BMW system is heavy, and I think Earl saved 60lbs with the BMS set-up.

I agree somewhat on the wheels issue but he's a bit to blame. There was a time when 18s were considered huge - now that's the minimum to clear the brakes, and a big brake kit (like he sells) often requires even larger ones.

I've never been a big fan of intakes - it's a modest bump in power, but it's also a modest outlay; no harm, no foul, if someone's so inclined.

His alignment advice is what most any shop would tell you.

[jarrow]

Originally Posted by Burt Reynolds

Just to clarify my points above- the HP gains / loss I was referring to were from seeing actual before and after dynos not butt dyno.

Here are some well done dyno analysis-(I would trust these results over Steve's gut instinct)

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...17#post3460717

Why do you assume that Steve is using gut instinct over actual dyno analysis?

[Burt Reynolds]

Maybe I misread the post but it sure looked like Steve was recommending him remove section 1 and replace with straight pipes without recommending software. They dyno from Earl shows you lose HP and TQ when you do that. Fair?

[thekurgan]

I found the rpi scoop with the stock filter gave better results without any software.

[jarrow]

I simply asked why you thought it was gut feel. I never said that he did use a dyno but based on the videos provided by Dinan they use both an engine dyno and a chassis dyno.

[Burt Reynolds]

I am not saying he does not dyno. I am saying he did not dyno his theory about section 1 or he would not have advised removing it without adding software. Steve's intuition is the one I would trust absent any dyno results. However, there are dyno results that contradict his advice on section 1. PM me if you want to discuss the merits of my argument further.

[MVF4Rrider]

Originally Posted by 03BeastCharmer

I think we was very honest in our meeting. Koni has no desire to work on a tuned shock for our car. He said if we really wanted something that we should talk to TC Kline, who might be willing to make a custom set for us.

Since their business model have moved on to different cars, he has nothing to lose by sending me to another vendor (if he knows one is out there).

He also vented about his personal frustration about wheel size, and that the marketing weenies were pushing him to release a 20 in wheel because everyone wants big wheels. He'd like to offer an 18 in wheel with more sidewall, which give more grip, but since 18's doing "look as cool" as 20's, very few people buy them, so it wouldn't be profitable to produce them. He also mentioned that BMW developed the E60 M5 on 18s, and when he tested in Spain before it's release it was on 18's, when it came to market it was 19's for look, but the car was developed to handle best on 18s.

He really is a racer and a car guy His stuff is majorly expensive, but you have to respect most of the stuff they do.

KW sells the progressive V3 and linear Club Sport coilovers. I prefer 18" wheels as well.