Whipple

TMR · 01-05-2011, 12:49 AM

I was curious why we havent seen any whipple super charger kits?

something like this

Your Thoughts?

Eugene-TAIWAN · 01-05-2011, 01:01 AM

I think because it makes crazy boost at low rpm and the engine needs to be built

Mr.Bimmer · 01-05-2011, 01:24 AM

Awww yes, the Whipple. Nothing but the best. I replaced my oem supercharger on my 03 Cobra and the thing dynoed 590rwhp with only 15-16psi and most bolt ons. That Whipple was good I think, up to like 24psi?

mfeltiii · 01-05-2011, 10:49 AM

Space

therealsullyz · 01-05-2011, 11:49 AM

Probably because of complicated manifold design associated with individual throttle bodies, etc.

thegeneral101 · 01-05-2011, 09:47 PM

god if whipple could make something for our car like they make for the new GT500...i had a chance to drive one of those and its such a monster with the whipple sc....

Richbot · 01-05-2011, 10:06 PM

You'd need a tunnel ram...

scalbert · 01-06-2011, 10:20 AM

One problem is the throttle control. Typically, roots or screw type blowers work on the vacuum side of the throttle. In this case, you may be able to feed the individual TB's, but it would need to bypass quickly when the throttles closed. Or removal of the individual throttles would be needed and a plenum/adapter would be added and then a single throttle on the blower entrance would need to be created. But then the electronics would need to be handled as one of the TPS would be ineffective as well as one throttle stepper motor.

Not impossible but certain more cumbersome as opposed to the centrifugal styles being utilized.

008 · 01-06-2011, 01:33 PM

And they're heavey. I also went through a ton of sc bearings in the late 90s on my off road race truck as they couldn't handle the heat.

TMR · 02-22-2011, 01:39 PM

I dont get it, this kit, smog legal, great power and looks well built... $6500 installed. These $12K+ supercharger kits is crazy. BMW tax i guess.

therealsullyz · 02-22-2011, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMR

BMW tax i guess.

Nail on the head my friend

J08M3 · 02-22-2011, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMR

BMW tax i guess.

This, and the fact that there are very few SC'd M3's so they won't be making their money of quantity.

Rshane · 02-22-2011, 02:39 PM

I had a whipple on my 03 Cobra before I went turbo...loved that thing. I'm not sure how the tranny would hold up with all that low end torque...or how a twin screw blower would hold up at 8300rpm...lots of heat.

TMR · 02-22-2011, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by J08M3

This, and the fact that there are very few SC'd M3's so they won't be making their money of quantity.

How many more Supercharged M3's do you think there would be if there was a sub $8000 kit? Id have one.

bigjae1976 · 02-24-2011, 04:51 AM

I can remember ESS tried to fit their Twinscrew kit onto the E46 and they couldn't get it perfectly right...had something to do with the ITBs I think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMR

I dont get it, this kit, smog legal, great power and looks well built... $6500 installed. These $12K+ supercharger kits is crazy. BMW tax i guess.

With other cars, the sales volume will be much higher for kits like this. So you can spread the R&D costs across more units and lower the costs. Also, you can manufacture at higher quantities so that reduces per unit costs as well.

How many LS engines are in use today? Now, compare that to the number of S65 engines in service. You'll think that $13k is cheap.

pbonsalb · 02-24-2011, 06:08 AM

Both AA and Eurosport made twinscrew kits for the E36M3. ESS also made one for the non-M E46 and E39. These used tiny 1.6 and 1.7L blowers. Aftermarket parts for a BMW are lower production and more expensive than for a domestic car, and despite the "universal" platform of OBD2, the ECU themselves are still proprietary and not as many tuners attempt to crack the BMW version. Those who do guard their intellectual property closely and charge a lot for it.

The positive displacement superchargers make full boost at very low rpm. Very high compression engines like the S54, S62, and S65 cannot handle this -- they will detonate. Centrifugal superchargers, that make very little boost at low rpm (or even mid rpm) actually work pretty well to protect the high compression engines. At high rpm, cylinder pressure is lower due to the faster action of the valvetrain and the boost is not as destructive.

If you did it, you would have to run very low boost, which might not be worth the cost. The built engine would resolve the compression issue, but at a cost equal to the supercharger kit itself. A thicker headgasket has worked on the S52, but is not a ideal a solution as lower compression pistons. VFE attempted to fit one on an S54 but found insufficient slack in the timing chain for the spacer. They did not play around with modifying the chain.

Superchargers drag off the crank, sapping power and adding heat. They still make great power, but not as good as a turbo. On a 5 liter V8 that starts out with torque to spare, it is not a big deal. On a smaller engine, it becomes more of an issue. The turbo, in comparison, adds more torque than the supercharger (either centrifugal or twinscrew) -- once the turbo spools. The twinscrew will always have the low rpm advantage, but the turbo will out-torque it in the midrange -- often substantially. The centrifugal is not even a remote competitor in this rpm range, though it is close or equal in the top 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 of the rpm curve.

01-05-2011, 12:49 AM	#1
TMR Brigadier General 394 Rep 3,161 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Torrance iTrader: (12)	Whipple I was curious why we havent seen any whipple super charger kits? something like this Your Thoughts? __________________ 2015 M3 BPM Tuned, Eibach, Magnaflow and more www.tmrmzine.com/m3/f80 SOLD E92 Slēk Carbon Fiber Widebody M3 www.tmrmzine.com/m3/slek/ SOLD E92 335i Stage 3+ with all the toys www.tmrmzine.com/335/ SOLD E39 M5 Modded, What a great car! www.tmrmzine.com/m5/
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01-05-2011, 01:01 AM	#2
Eugene-TAIWAN Brigadier General 249 Rep 3,157 Posts Drives: E92 M3 Coupe Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Taiwan iTrader: (4)	I think because it makes crazy boost at low rpm and the engine needs to be built __________________ Past: Gintani stage3 M3, Cayman GTS present: Porsche 993RWB, 964RS America,996 cupcar, 964 turbo 3.6,Macan Turbo,997GT2,930 turbo,i3, MINI JCW
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01-05-2011, 01:24 AM	#3
Mr.Bimmer Lieutenant 44 Rep 436 Posts Drives: 2010 E90 M3 (sold) Join Date: May 2006 Location: Orange County, Ca iTrader: (5)	Awww yes, the Whipple. Nothing but the best. I replaced my oem supercharger on my 03 Cobra and the thing dynoed 590rwhp with only 15-16psi and most bolt ons. That Whipple was good I think, up to like 24psi?
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01-05-2011, 10:49 AM	#4
mfeltiii Second Lieutenant 8 Rep 262 Posts Drives: '10 AW E92 6mt Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: S. FLA iTrader: (1)	Space
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01-05-2011, 11:49 AM	#5
therealsullyz frequent tire investor 2 Rep 54 Posts Drives: E46 M3, E92 M3 Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Garlic Capital iTrader: (0)	Probably because of complicated manifold design associated with individual throttle bodies, etc.
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01-05-2011, 09:47 PM	#6
thegeneral101 Colonel 76 Rep 2,304 Posts Drives: '15 Z06,'13 750Li,'11 Raptor Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Miami/Michigan iTrader: (0)	god if whipple could make something for our car like they make for the new GT500...i had a chance to drive one of those and its such a monster with the whipple sc.... __________________
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01-05-2011, 10:06 PM	#7
Richbot Major General 2760 Rep 5,483 Posts Drives: Jerez Black E90 Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: STL iTrader: (5)	You'd need a tunnel ram... __________________
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01-06-2011, 10:20 AM	#8
scalbert Major General 153 Rep 5,780 Posts Drives: '13 S4, '15 Q7 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Woodstock, GA iTrader: (8)	One problem is the throttle control. Typically, roots or screw type blowers work on the vacuum side of the throttle. In this case, you may be able to feed the individual TB's, but it would need to bypass quickly when the throttles closed. Or removal of the individual throttles would be needed and a plenum/adapter would be added and then a single throttle on the blower entrance would need to be created. But then the electronics would need to be handled as one of the TPS would be ineffective as well as one throttle stepper motor. Not impossible but certain more cumbersome as opposed to the centrifugal styles being utilized.
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01-06-2011, 01:33 PM	#9
008 Sexual Philanthropist 5 Rep 319 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Houston iTrader: (0)	And they're heavey. I also went through a ton of sc bearings in the late 90s on my off road race truck as they couldn't handle the heat. __________________ 2011 E92 M3 AW/SC DCT, ZCV bought 11/10 sold 9/11
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02-22-2011, 01:39 PM	#10
TMR Brigadier General 394 Rep 3,161 Posts Drives: M3 Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Torrance iTrader: (12)	I dont get it, this kit, smog legal, great power and looks well built... $6500 installed. These $12K+ supercharger kits is crazy. BMW tax i guess. __________________ 2015 M3 BPM Tuned, Eibach, Magnaflow and more www.tmrmzine.com/m3/f80 SOLD E92 Slēk Carbon Fiber Widebody M3 www.tmrmzine.com/m3/slek/ SOLD E92 335i Stage 3+ with all the toys www.tmrmzine.com/335/ SOLD E39 M5 Modded, What a great car! www.tmrmzine.com/m5/
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02-22-2011, 02:39 PM	#13
Rshane M-Flight Member 38 Rep 1,085 Posts Drives: 2011 E92 M3 Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: San Antonio, Texas iTrader: (0)	I had a whipple on my 03 Cobra before I went turbo...loved that thing. I'm not sure how the tranny would hold up with all that low end torque...or how a twin screw blower would hold up at 8300rpm...lots of heat. __________________ 2011 Le Mans Blue M3// Black extended Novillo w/ Blue Grey Aluminum trim/DCT/ZTP/ZCW/ZPP/ZCP Premium Sound ///Akrapovic Evolution Exhaust 2015 Audi S4 Prestige, Brilliant Black S-tronic 2012 Le Mans Blue 135i M Pkg DCT
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02-24-2011, 06:08 AM	#16
pbonsalb Lieutenant General 5234 Rep 10,616 Posts Drives: 18 F90 M5, 99 E36 M3 Turbo Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: New England iTrader: (4)	Both AA and Eurosport made twinscrew kits for the E36M3. ESS also made one for the non-M E46 and E39. These used tiny 1.6 and 1.7L blowers. Aftermarket parts for a BMW are lower production and more expensive than for a domestic car, and despite the "universal" platform of OBD2, the ECU themselves are still proprietary and not as many tuners attempt to crack the BMW version. Those who do guard their intellectual property closely and charge a lot for it. The positive displacement superchargers make full boost at very low rpm. Very high compression engines like the S54, S62, and S65 cannot handle this -- they will detonate. Centrifugal superchargers, that make very little boost at low rpm (or even mid rpm) actually work pretty well to protect the high compression engines. At high rpm, cylinder pressure is lower due to the faster action of the valvetrain and the boost is not as destructive. If you did it, you would have to run very low boost, which might not be worth the cost. The built engine would resolve the compression issue, but at a cost equal to the supercharger kit itself. A thicker headgasket has worked on the S52, but is not a ideal a solution as lower compression pistons. VFE attempted to fit one on an S54 but found insufficient slack in the timing chain for the spacer. They did not play around with modifying the chain. Superchargers drag off the crank, sapping power and adding heat. They still make great power, but not as good as a turbo. On a 5 liter V8 that starts out with torque to spare, it is not a big deal. On a smaller engine, it becomes more of an issue. The turbo, in comparison, adds more torque than the supercharger (either centrifugal or twinscrew) -- once the turbo spools. The twinscrew will always have the low rpm advantage, but the turbo will out-torque it in the midrange -- often substantially. The centrifugal is not even a remote competitor in this rpm range, though it is close or equal in the top 1/4 or maybe even 1/3 of the rpm curve.
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