A few questions to the weekend track warriors

[kaiv]

Hey fellas!

I'm new to the E9x world. Previously owned and tracked an E46. The E46 was easy to setup. There was a wealth of info and popular setups that were known to work well.

With the E9x chassis however I've been having a hard time finding similar info.

So I have a few questions:

(Suspension)

1) What are your height settings? What works well?

I just installed coilovers (KW V3s) on my car and I am not sure where to start. Obviously I don't want to be too low and compromise geometry.

2) What compression and rebound settings do you use on the street? And what to start at for the track? (assuming smooth pavement)

3) What are your alignment specs? I understand the E9x chassis doesn't require as much camber as the E46 (correct me if I'm wrong)

(Brakes)

4) What track pads do you use?
I need something that works well with the stock rotors and calipers.

(Wheels/Tires)

5) Staggered or square? Square setups worked really well on the E46 (A popular setup was 9.5 +35 all around) What about the E9x?

6) I could fit 275s all around on the E46. What about the E9x? I would like to avoid rolling the fenders. What are popular sizes? What are the widest tires you can fit in the front without rubbing?

Thanks in advance for your input!

-Kevin

[1MOREMOD]

i cant comment on the suspension as i am still on stock. as for the tires and wheels i feel that a square set up is very good with this car as well. i run 19s with 265-30 all the way around on a 9.5 rim et22. for the 18 inch wheels people generally run 275-30s on a 10 inch rim not sure of that offset.

[quads]

I have to comment that I ran a square setup for oloa (one lap of america) which is a total of 5,000 miles of driving in 7 days visiting at least one track a day.

The square setup is great that you can rotate front/rears to even out wear. However I do have to say when you approach the limits of mechanical grip in the corners the car tends to want to snap oversteer more than the staggered setup. Note that I said "more." It's nothing like my ls6 miata with a square setup which snap oversteers whenever it likes haha. But the squared setup will tend to have more snap and your window transitioning between under to oversteer with modulating your throttle will be much narrower. Again if you're not pushing the limits and you're just learning I think square is great but to me stagger gives me a little more control at the limit.

I'm getting a blower so a staggered setup will be even more critical.

By the way I ran oloa 2011 with apex arc-8 18x10's with 275/35/18 pss all the way around.

[sawzall]

When I was running stock calipers/rotors, I switched up to Page RS19 pads. On the track, they were fantastic, and I didn't experience any fade even during extended 25-30 minute sessions. They were relatively easy on the rotors, and bit very predictably when cold or hot.

This year, I'll be running a square setup for the first time, with 18" x 9.5" wheels with 275/35/18 all around.

[von_zoom]

I have done nothing to my suspension, but have changed brake pads only. For the track I use Performance Friction (Race ready) Pads, Part nbr Front 09.18.01.19.44, Rear 09.19.01.16.44, replaced brake lines with stainless steel, ATE Super Blue brake fluid, and I run a square set up, BFG R1 Compounds, 275/35/18 on APEX 18X10 rims. I am very satisfied with the performance. Car handles well, with moderate push and tail happy expectations - easy to predict when which will occur. Suggest you begin slowly with your mods, taking one step at a time and monitor the results.
vz

[M3SQRD]

Not sure what ride height to use with the KW V3 but I'd recommend starting with a rear rake of 0.5" (rear 0.5" higher than front).

Yes, the e92 can get away with less front camber compared to the e46, however, R-comps will require more camber than street tires. I run 1/16-1/8" front toe out and 1/8" rear toe in (total).

Brake pads usually come down to personal preference, however, the PFC01 or Colbalt XR1 are both excellent pads.

[kaiv]

Thanks for the replies, fellas!! BTW, I'm not new to tracking, just new to that particular chassis!

For the brakes I'm really just looking for a pad that won't fade when coupled with stainless steel lines and good fluid. I had a BBK on the old car but with the E9x I'm hoping stock rotors and calipers will be good enough -at least for now (I don't ride the brakes but I love to brake late and hard).

As for the wheels/tires, do the 18x10 (guessing offset 25?) and 275/35 combo fit without needing unreasonable amounts of camber? Stock fenders?

Has anyone fitted 285s in front?

I ask because I already ran 275s on the E46 which is a much lighter chassis. I want to assume that with a heavier car such as the E9x I would want a bigger tire

PS: I'll probably be running good street tires (hankook rs3) or perhaps some used grand am contis from turner.

Thanks again everyone for your input!

[von_zoom]

As to tires, I can only speak to the BFG 275/35/18 that I run. No problem thus far with clearance. I merely bolt on the APEX rims and go. Brake pads I use stock calipers/rotors with the PCs. Great pad, and no issues. I too brake hard and late and have half a season on them, although, I am about the point of replacement. BTW, I never switched pads between events, rather, ran them on the street. Yep, make a lot of noise. I have not attempted to run larger tires, or another brand.
vz

[M3SQRD]

18"x10" et25 or 27

275/35 square setup is common but not sure about getting a 285 to work on the front. Unlike the e46, there is no fender to roll on the e9x, however, a 285/30 or 295/30 will fit on the rear.

I'm running a BBK so I don't have any insight into how the stock brakes will perform on the track.

[Richard@M-World]

Here are my 2 cents.

1) What are your height settings? What works well?

For a street car ride height is as much about performance as practicality. Here's a set up KW recommends which works well: 330 mm front, 325 mm rear (measured from fender to center of roundel)

2) What compression and rebound settings do you use on the street? And what to start at for the track? (assuming smooth pavement)

I would recommend starting with KW's recommendation. If I remember correctly it is bump/rebound 6/6 front, 6/9 rear. All adjusted from full hard. It is impossible to generalize the perfect setting because everyone's car is set up differently.

3) What are your alignment specs? I understand the E9x chassis doesn't require as much camber as the E46 (correct me if I'm wrong)

Really depends on your car use. For example, I run -3.2F/-2.2R deg camber for my dedicated track car on Hoosier R6. If it is dual purpose, try -2.2 deg camber front, -1.6 deg camber rear. Neutral toe up front, slight toe in rear. A dual purpose set up is always a compromise between performance on track and tire wear on the streets.

5) Staggered or square? Square setups worked really well on the E46 (A popular setup was 9.5 +35 all around) What about the E9x?

As many have said, square allows your car to rotate better with a hint of oversteer at the adhesion limit in steady state corners. Pro racers typically prefer a car that is slightly loose because it turns better. Staggered typically gives a slight understeer, which may be preferred for a newer driver. It really depends on your preference, tires and size combinations you use.

6) I could fit 275s all around on the E46. What about the E9x? I would like to avoid rolling the fenders. What are popular sizes? What are the widest tires you can fit in the front without rubbing?

For people who do a squared set up, most do 10" width all around with 275/35 tires. ET 25F/15R should work well. Those who do staggered do 9.5"F/10.5"R, usually with 265-275F/285-295R tires.

[persian54]

Originally Posted by dbarnes

18"x10" et25 or 27

275/35 square setup is common but not sure about getting a 285 to work on the front. Unlike the e46, there is no fender to roll on the e9x, however, a 285/30 or 295/30 will fit on the rear.

I'm running a BBK so I don't have any insight into how the stock brakes will perform on the track.

Since I'm assuming you're referring to 18 in tires:
My current set up:
18x9.5 et22 18x10.5 et20
265/35/18 285/35/18
Hankook RS3s

When I was at the shop last week, I put my rear in the front, and i had just enough clearance. I may test it out driving/tracking later
But visually, in the air and on the ground, there was no issues.
I have about -2.4 or so camber up front, with a neutral 0. Running Dinan springs and camber "plate" if that means anything

My friend ran 18x10.5 et20 285/35/18 Hankook RS3 square set up for a little while and said he was happy with it. He is running 275/35/18 NT01s now though.

Originally Posted by kaiv

I love to brake late and hard).

You'll want a BBK
the stock set up fades bad

Getting SS lines, fluid and pads will help a good amount though; at least from my experience

[von_zoom]

Just a further note on brakes. I have had absolutely no fade or any other issues with the PC pads on stock calipers/rotors. I run mostly at VIR, a long and fast track, requiring very hard braking from 145 to 80 (or slower) several times during a single lap. Car has always been true and reliable, even in the dead of summer.
vz

[M3SQRD]

Originally Posted by persian54

Since I'm assuming you're referring to 18 in tires

When I was at the shop last week, I put my rear in the front, and i had just enough clearance. I may test it out driving/tracking later
But visually, in the air and on the ground, there was no issues.
I have about -2.4 or so camber up front, with a neutral 0. Running Dinan springs and camber "plate" if that means anything

My friend ran 18x10.5 et20 285/35/18 Hankook RS3 square set up for a little while and said he was happy with it. He is running 275/35/18

Yes, 18" tires.

With a 285 on the front are there any clearance issues (fender, liners, spring/damper body)? Can you turn the steering wheel lock-to-lock? I guess with the correct wheel-tire-camber combo you can squeeze a 285 onto the F?

[persian54]

Originally Posted by dbarnes

Yes, 18" tires.

With a 285 on the front are there any clearance issues (fender, liners, spring/damper body)? Can you turn the steering wheel lock-to-lock? I guess with the correct wheel-tire-camber combo you can squeeze a 285 onto the F?

No contact with fender, liners, spring, damper

but this was the car sitting on the shop floor.

I don't know for a fact if it would hit the fender on a tight turn or not.

Though I do know my friend tracked several times with his 285 F with 0 issues

[VictorH]

Originally Posted by von_zoom

Just a further note on brakes. I have had absolutely no fade or any other issues with the PC pads on stock calipers/rotors. I run mostly at VIR, a long and fast track, requiring very hard braking from 145 to 80 (or slower) several times during a single lap. Car has always been true and reliable, even in the dead of summer.
vz

This has been true for me too. I'm not running Perf Friction yet but will try them soon. I've had my brakes hot too, last year at Road America my session probably 2 minutes from the end was black flagged and I was right at track exit so no cool down from me. I've seen plenty hot brakes on other people cars before but I tell you I could have cooked a pizza in 2 minutes flat with my brakes. The heat waves were just pouring out of the fenders and the brakes had been functioning just fine before that.

[OC3]

Originally Posted by kaiv

5) Staggered or square? Square setups worked really well on the E46 (A popular setup was 9.5 +35 all around) What about the E9x?

6) I could fit 275s all around on the E46. What about the E9x? I would like to avoid rolling the fenders. What are popular sizes? What are the widest tires you can fit in the front without rubbing?

Thanks in advance for your input!

-Kevin

Ran both, and square, for sure. Or, if staggered, at least 265 on the front, if not 275. E9x M3's in stock form tend to understeer, and meaty front tires (and w/ aggressive negative camber) really works wonder for quicker turn-ins.

Many of us run 275s all around on E9x M3's.

[von_zoom]

This has been true for me too. I'm not running Perf Friction yet but will try them soon.

VictorH

Do not attempt this at CMP with your stock set up. When my car was new, just after brake in service, my first experience on the traick with my E92 at CMP with stock brakes, completely went away after 3 laps. I quickly replaced my stock pads. No issue since.
vz

[wwjd15]

Try to put some of my point of view, hope it helps.

1) There's no standard answer on it. It has to do with the car set up overall.

2) V3's are smooth. You can always start from the middle (9 clicks from soft to still), then go from there.

3) It depends on tires you are running. Whatever tires you are going to use, it will require at least -2.5 on front for sure.

(Brakes)

4) If you ever care DD, I would only recommend Endless. If you don't mind noise, then Pagid has good pads too.

(Wheels/Tires)

5) I have tried 265/285, 275/285, 275/275, 285/285. I would recommend square.

6) I ran RS3 285/285 square on 18x10.5 et20 square, 0 issue.

[kaiv]

Originally Posted by dbarnes

Not sure what ride height to use with the KW V3 but I'd recommend starting with a rear rake of 0.5" (rear 0.5" higher than front).

Don't you mean the rear .5" lower?

Stock, the rear is lower than the front (center of wheel to fender)

So I'm assuming it's best to keep it that way to not upset the car's dynamics.

Originally Posted by von_zoom

As to tires, I can only speak to the BFG 275/35/18 that I run. No problem thus far with clearance. I merely bolt on the APEX rims and go. Brake pads I use stock calipers/rotors with the PCs. Great pad, and no issues. I too brake hard and late and have half a season on them, although, I am about the point of replacement. BTW, I never switched pads between events, rather, ran them on the street. Yep, make a lot of noise. I have not attempted to run larger tires, or another brand.
vz

I'm assuming you are talking of the R1s? From experience Rcomps run wider than street tires so that means we could run 285 street tires!

Originally Posted by von_zoom

Just a further note on brakes. I have had absolutely no fade or any other issues with the PC pads on stock calipers/rotors. I run mostly at VIR, a long and fast track, requiring very hard braking from 145 to 80 (or slower) several times during a single lap. Car has always been true and reliable, even in the dead of summer.
vz

By PC are you talking about the PFC 01s?

I'm having a hard time making my mind up about the brakes.

If I go with a ST40 setup it's $2k but then I can probably get away with running the stoptech street performance pads and not have swap them. That's what I had on my E46 and it worked well (plus those pads are really cheap!)

However a stock setup with PC01s all around, with lines and good fluid would run only 700-800ish but then I would still have stock-ish brakes and would have to swap them back and forth.

Originally Posted by Richard@M-World

Here are my 2 cents.

1) What are your height settings? What works well?

For a street car ride height is as much about performance as practicality. Here's a set up KW recommends which works well: 330 mm front, 325 mm rear (measured from fender to center of roundel)

2) What compression and rebound settings do you use on the street? And what to start at for the track? (assuming smooth pavement)

I would recommend starting with KW's recommendation. If I remember correctly it is bump/rebound 6/6 front, 6/9 rear. All adjusted from full hard. It is impossible to generalize the perfect setting because everyone's car is set up differently.

3) What are your alignment specs? I understand the E9x chassis doesn't require as much camber as the E46 (correct me if I'm wrong)

Really depends on your car use. For example, I run -3.2F/-2.2R deg camber for my dedicated track car on Hoosier R6. If it is dual purpose, try -2.2 deg camber front, -1.6 deg camber rear. Neutral toe up front, slight toe in rear. A dual purpose set up is always a compromise between performance on track and tire wear on the streets.

5) Staggered or square? Square setups worked really well on the E46 (A popular setup was 9.5 +35 all around) What about the E9x?

As many have said, square allows your car to rotate better with a hint of oversteer at the adhesion limit in steady state corners. Pro racers typically prefer a car that is slightly loose because it turns better. Staggered typically gives a slight understeer, which may be preferred for a newer driver. It really depends on your preference, tires and size combinations you use.

6) I could fit 275s all around on the E46. What about the E9x? I would like to avoid rolling the fenders. What are popular sizes? What are the widest tires you can fit in the front without rubbing?

For people who do a squared set up, most do 10" width all around with 275/35 tires. ET 25F/15R should work well. Those who do staggered do 9.5"F/10.5"R, usually with 265-275F/285-295R tires.

Yeah my car is a dual purpose car so everything has to be a compromise.
I swap wheels/tires at the track but I like to not have to swap pads (didn't have to with the ST40 on my E46).

The "330 mm front, 325 mm rear" is the minimum setup recommended by KW. Right now I'm at 13" all around but it seems if I go any lower in the rear, I would not be within KW's recommended rear spring perch adjustment range Anyways I'm more concerned about keeping the rake (rear slightly lower than front) so I guess I'll go ahead and lower the rear a bit more.

Alignment setup: thanks I'll try that. Do you know if that's doable with stock mounts (front) and stock arms (back)? I had -3/-2 in the E46 with neutral toe and it was fine on the street. I just don't want to have excessive negative camber since I'll be running street tires.

Right now I maxed out the front mounts (pin removed) and maxed out the excentric bolts in the back. Waiting for the brand new suspension to "settle" and height adjustment to be final before getting a proper alignment.

Originally Posted by persian54

Since I'm assuming you're referring to 18 in tires:
My current set up:
18x9.5 et22 18x10.5 et20
265/35/18 285/35/18
Hankook RS3s

When I was at the shop last week, I put my rear in the front, and i had just enough clearance. I may test it out driving/tracking later
But visually, in the air and on the ground, there was no issues.
I have about -2.4 or so camber up front, with a neutral 0. Running Dinan springs and camber "plate" if that means anything

My friend ran 18x10.5 et20 285/35/18 Hankook RS3 square set up for a little while and said he was happy with it. He is running 275/35/18 NT01s now though.






You'll want a BBK
the stock set up fades bad

Getting SS lines, fluid and pads will help a good amount though; at least from my experience

I have the same tire/wheel setup right now
I've seen your pics at the local tracks. Hopefully I'll run into you one of these days!

Originally Posted by OC3

Ran both, and square, for sure. Or, if staggered, at least 265 on the front, if not 275. E9x M3's in stock form tend to understeer, and meaty front tires (and w/ aggressive negative camber) really works wonder for quicker turn-ins.

Many of us run 275s all around on E9x M3's.

I'll probably go square then. I like to be able to rotate wheels/tires around

Originally Posted by von_zoom

VictorH

Do not attempt this at CMP with your stock set up. When my car was new, just after brake in service, my first experience on the traick with my E92 at CMP with stock brakes, completely went away after 3 laps. I quickly replaced my stock pads. No issue since.
vz

Reminds me of my very first track day at Buttonwillow with my E46. All stock brake setup. Few laps later: pedal goes to the floor. Cooked pads, cooked fluid! No warning either. It was either I go out or rear end somebody lol

Originally Posted by wwjd15

Try to put some of my point of view, hope it helps.

1) There's no standard answer on it. It has to do with the car set up overall.

2) V3's are smooth. You can always start from the middle (9 clicks from soft to still), then go from there.

3) It depends on tires you are running. Whatever tires you are going to use, it will require at least -2.5 on front for sure.

(Brakes)

4) If you ever care DD, I would only recommend Endless. If you don't mind noise, then Pagid has good pads too.

(Wheels/Tires)

5) I have tried 265/285, 275/285, 275/275, 285/285. I would recommend square.

6) I ran RS3 285/285 square on 18x10.5 et20 square, 0 issue.

Is -2.5 attainable with stock mounts at all in the front?

What ride height are you to run 285s all around with no rubbing?


Thanks again everyone for all the replies. Much appreciated. Glad to see many people are tracking their E9x!

[wwjd15]

^^ I never had problem with 285/35/18 square ever, so I don't know at what point it will rub or clear.

[von_zoom]

I'm assuming you are talking of the R1s? From experience Rcomps run wider than street tires so that means we could run 285 street tires!

Yes - use them for both of my track cars. M3 and 525i. I am not sure of the 285 fit however as I have not used that size. From others who have comment, appears that they may fit.

By PC are you talking about the PFC 01s?

Again, yes. You may wish to consider the 06, later development. I have not used them however. I also leave them on for the season, and just put up with the squeal.

vz

[persian54]

Originally Posted by kaiv

Is -2.5 attainable with stock mounts at all in the front?

I could only get -2.5 front camber with dinan springs and camber "plate'

stock stock the most i could was -1.3
I never removed the pins though