cage safe if covered w/ padding when not wearing a helmet????

[Sebringjetta]

ok so we all know a cage would be unsafe if involved in a accident if your not wearing a helmet.... so if i were to wrap the necessary areas w/ padding do you think it would be safe to drive on the street from time to time.... now of course i know in a accident anything is possible but im just throwing it out there as a general thought....obviously no cage and all airbags operational is the safest but as of now i have no airbags...

whats your thought???????????

[hgmotorsports]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

ok so we all know a cage would be unsafe if involved in a accident if your not wearing a helmet.... so if i were to wrap the necessary areas w/ padding do you think it would be safe to drive on the street from time to time.... now of course i know in a accident anything is possible but im just throwing it out there as a general thought....obviously no cage and all airbags operational is the safest but as of now i have no airbags...

whats your thought???????????

In my personal opinion, I don't see why why not. Adding padding doesn't hurt but this is somewhat of a subjective question. You're taking that risk no matter if you have pads or not.

-Mike

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by hgmotorsports

In my personal opinion, I don't see why why not. Adding padding doesn't hurt but this is somewhat of a subjective question. You're taking that risk no matter if you have pads or not.

-Mike

i appreciate the response!!!!! ya i was trying to get that across that it is subjective....but do you think hitting the oem pillar w/ your head vs hitting a padded bar w/ your head would be different...think thats the real question.....

[hgmotorsports]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

i appreciate the response!!!!! ya i was trying to get that across that it is subjective....but do you think hitting the oem pillar w/ your head vs hitting a padded bar w/ your head would be different...think thats the real question.....

Well that is what harnesses are for. I imagine that you have harnesses since you have a full cage. You shouldn't be near hitting the bar if you are strapped in properly.

-Mike

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by hgmotorsports

Well that is what harnesses are for. I imagine that you have harnesses since you have a full cage. You shouldn't be near hitting the bar if you are strapped in properly.

-Mike

yes sir i will have 6pt...was thinking of keeping the oem 3pt so if highway patrol decides to give me a hard time because i dont have oem safety restraints.... but i figured a 3pt would never be safe if a full cage is present...

[hgmotorsports]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

yes sir i will have 6pt...was thinking of keeping the oem 3pt so if highway patrol decides to give me a hard time because i dont have oem safety restraints.... but i figured a 3pt would never be safe if a full cage is present...

LOL, you will never get hassled by the CHP for your case and harness. I still have my 3pt in the car to avoid that annoying ding. I've been too lazy to solve that problem, haha.

-Mike

[Estoril Blue]

It seems that you may be envisioning external trauma to the skull as the key risk. IMO - it isn't the greatest risk.

The greatest risk is the sudden, sharp stop of your skull in-motion against any solid, fixed object - causing your brain to impact the INSIDE of your skull with that same/similar force. The resulting brain injury can change your life forever.

Skulls are harder to damage than your brain. Think brain injury.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

It seems that you may be envisioning external trauma to the skull as the key risk. IMO - it isn't the greatest risk.

The greatest risk is the sudden, sharp stop of your skull in-motion against any solid, fixed object - causing your brain to impact the INSIDE of your skull with that same/similar force. The resulting brain injury can change your life forever.

Skulls are harder to damage than your brain. Think brain injury.

so with that said...do you think you have a greater chance of brain damage against a padded bar vs hitting the oem pillar???? i know that each incident could have a different result but i have always said a full cage is dangerous w/ out a helmet but im starting to wonder if its really anymore dangerous then if you hit your head against the oem pillar.....

[IzzyGray]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

so with that said...do you think you have a greater chance of brain damage against a padded bar vs hitting the oem pillar???? i know that each incident could have a different result but i have always said a full cage is dangerous w/ out a helmet but im starting to wonder if its really anymore dangerous then if you hit your head against the oem pillar.....

What the other poster is saying is that your concern with your head experiencing an external trauma(eg. Hitting your head against the oem pillar/padded bar) is a lot less worrisome than the internal brain injury you will have if a sudden stop occurs. In other words, in an accident where your head suddenly decelerates(think running into a wall), but your brain is still moving forward, the trauma that your brain will incur sloshing against the inside of your skull, is way more worrying than an injury where you hit your skull externally on a pillar.

ETA: I don't think its likely that you'll be forced so far forward that it'll allow your head to hit the cage(assuming you are strapped in). Maybe on the side if you're tall enough(?). From an overall safety standpoint(not legal/liability), I think you're fine with not padding it.

[r53s65e90]

Unless you crash test a caged car with a dummy in it that measures all sorts of stuff, you will never know. The interior of the car without a cage is like a well designed helmet. Even if you add padding, you will just be guessing about how much you need and how effective it will be.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by IzzyGray

What the other poster is saying is that your concern with your head experiencing an external trauma(eg. Hitting your head against the oem pillar/padded bar) is a lot less worrisome than the internal brain injury you will have if a sudden stop occurs. In other words, in an accident where your head suddenly decelerates(think running into a wall), but your brain is still moving forward, the trauma that your brain will incur sloshing against the inside of your skull, is way more worrying than an injury where you hit your skull externally on a pillar.

ETA: I don't think its likely that you'll be forced so far forward that it'll allow your head to hit the cage(assuming you are strapped in). Maybe on the side if you're tall enough(?). From an overall safety standpoint(not legal/liability), I think you're fine with not padding it.

Originally Posted by r53s65e90

Unless you crash test a caged car with a dummy in it that measures all sorts of stuff, you will never know. The interior of the car without a cage is like a well designed helmet. Even if you add padding, you will just be guessing about how much you need and how effective it will be.

MAKES SENSE FELLAS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[s85e90]

It's "safer".

FYI there's a bunch of cars now w/ intrical roll cages designed tight within the pillars.

Any accident that bad is gonna be bad, but the padding helps.

[Z K]

If your car has a roll cage and multi-point harness, then you should really be driving with a helmet and HANS device. That is the only way to be safe even for street driving. The car is originally designed with airbags for a un-helmeted head. By installing a cage, you've made the car unsafe for not wearing a helmet.

But if you choose to take the risk of driving with a cage and no helmet, then you should know the potential injuries.

[bigjae1976]

I think you'd be OK as long as the bar is high enough with room between the seat and the hoop.

I've seen much worse on the streets everyday than a car with a cage and harness.

The real question is...how good is your cage?

[Estoril Blue]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

so with that said...do you think you have a greater chance of brain damage against a padded bar vs hitting the oem pillar???? i know that each incident could have a different result but i have always said a full cage is dangerous w/ out a helmet but im starting to wonder if its really anymore dangerous then if you hit your head against the oem pillar.....

Given I have no test data to make any answer mean anything - anything I (or likely anyone else) could say in response means nothing.

How much padding? What density? If it isn't 4-5X the padding we usually see installed (which would be crazy bulky) - I can't imagine it making much difference. A unprotected head strike on a standard padded bar is (IMO) highly unlikely to have a good outcome. Remember - its not just "padding" to protect your head. Its the sudden deceleration of your brain against the inside of your skull.

IMO - the comparison of the pillar versus a roll bar sort of slips the reality that you are increasing the hard, completely unforgiving structural members you can permanently injure yourself on. Given that you are literally gambling your brain on the odds (no helmet) - just how much risk is acceptable to you and others who might be in the car?

I know a young guy who had a auto interior head strike at age 18 - where the odds for best recovery is pretty much optimal. Unfortunately his life is now permanently changed.

Of course the harness is only going to do you good when it is 100% tight. How many of us would really do that off the track....all the time...month after month, trip after trip without getting casual? I'm guessing none.

You only get one brain. Stay safe and keep the odds in your favor...best you can.

[Sleeper519]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

It seems that you may be envisioning external trauma to the skull as the key risk. IMO - it isn't the greatest risk.

The greatest risk is the sudden, sharp stop of your skull in-motion against any solid, fixed object - causing your brain to impact the INSIDE of your skull with that same/similar force. The resulting brain injury can change your life forever.

Skulls are harder to damage than your brain. Think brain injury.

Ah yes, the ole coup/contra-coup.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

I think you'd be OK as long as the bar is high enough with room between the seat and the hoop.

en much worse on the streets everyday than a car with a cage and harness.

The real question is...how good is your cage?

Proffessional shop who does alot of work for lms and gt teams in the area..cage is top notch. ..cage work is nasa and scca approved

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by Estoril Blue

Given I have no test data to make any answer mean anything - anything I (or likely anyone else) could say in response means nothing.

How much padding? What density? If it isn't 4-5X the padding we usually see installed (which would be crazy bulky) - I can't imagine it making much difference. A unprotected head strike on a standard padded bar is (IMO) highly unlikely to have a good outcome. Remember - its not just "padding" to protect your head. Its the sudden deceleration of your brain against the inside of your skull.

IMO - the comparison of the pillar versus a roll bar sort of slips the reality that you are increasing the hard, completely unforgiving structural members you can permanently injure yourself on. Given that you are literally gambling your brain on the odds (no helmet) - just how much risk is acceptable to you and others who might be in the car?

I know a young guy who had a auto interior head strike at age 18 - where the odds for best recovery is pretty much optimal. Unfortunately his life is now permanently changed.

Of course the harness is only going to do you good when it is 100% tight. How many of us would really do that off the track....all the time...month after month, trip after trip without getting casual? I'm guessing none.

You only get one brain. Stay safe and keep the odds in your favor...best you can.

Well I was all about it until I read your response

[bigjae1976]

Originally Posted by Sebringjetta

Proffessional shop who does alot of work for lms and gt teams in the area..cage is top notch. ..cage work is nasa and scca approved

What's NASA and SCCA approved and best for racing isn't necessarily the best for a street car with air bags. Don't follow the because racecar...its awesome mentality.

I believe the opposite from most I've seen here.

I think fix seats and no cage is better than cage and seats or cage and stock seats. Cars have some amount of rollover protection built into them. Cars do not have any provision for keeping you fixed in that spot. If you ever watch a crash slow-mo video, there occupants move a lot.

The problem with a cage is there is a good chance that it will impact the rear crumple zone. In a side impact, the cage may shift and increase the damage done the car.

...assuming we're talking about 4pt cages.

So no matter how you dice it...there's a compromise. You don't always know what happen but I strongly believe in active safety meaning don't get into the accident in the first place.

[Sebringjetta]

Originally Posted by bigjae1976

What's NASA and SCCA approved and best for racing isn't necessarily the best for a street car with air bags. Don't follow the because racecar...its awesome mentality.

I believe the opposite from most I've seen here.

I think fix seats and no cage is better than cage and seats or cage and stock seats. Cars have some amount of rollover protection built into them. Cars do not have any provision for keeping you fixed in that spot. If you ever watch a crash slow-mo video, there occupants move a lot.

The problem with a cage is there is a good chance that it will impact the rear crumple zone. In a side impact, the cage may shift and increase the damage done tmonthar.

...assuming we're talking about 4pt cages.

So no matter how you dice it...there's a compromise. You don't always know what happen but I strongly believe in active safety meaning don't get into the accident in the first place.

I would agree with you but I want to run a 6pt harness and do not want to be strapped in with no roll over protection. .. I know you have read the theory of being strapped in a fixed position and the in the event of a roll over the roof caves compressing the spine... as far as damage to the car if the crash is bad enough im probably not going to be worried about the cage causing more damage...after my last wreck on the track I have always carried insurance. .. and as far as a race shop building my cage meant to show they are a reputable shop who builds street cages ie 4pt and full race setups..all depends on what the owner is using the car for.... being that i track a few times a month in my opinion I would say the cage is a good idea or at least a 4pt... now as far as doing a full setup on this car its probably extreme but it would also be nice for added protection. ...

[Sebringjetta]

Ohh and by the way I have no airbags

[ChrisF]

I'm kind of shocked by the responses. You're introducing a hard fixed object into places where you head is very likely to go in any accident. Padding that is soft will be compressed in a millisecond by the force of your skull under deceleration; padding of a firm durometer will just act as an extension of the bar when your head impacts it. You should seriously consider trailering the car if you want a full cage. Consider maybe a rear half cage instead?

Oh and are you carrying insurance on this car when you drive it on the street? My guess is your insurance company would likely deny coverage should you or your passenger suffer an injury from contact with the bar.